The 2005 168HP MINI Cooper S?

<p>Gabe,</p>

<p>I noticed that as well, and I think that you are right.</p>

<p>What I am curious about is where the increase in power is from, and what the implications are. The only changes that we are aware of are ECU changes, Gen V of the supercharger, and the gearing. We know that the gearing doesn't provide any extra hp. The Gen V supercharger has been claimed by Eaton not to give any extra hp, but to just be more efficient. That leaves the ECU changes. So if the 5hp is coming from ECU changes, what are the implications of the tuning companies?</p>

<p>Most ECU companies are only in reality getting about 5-6hp. Will they still get this power on an '05, or will they need to develop new programs? I don't see the benefit of getting maybe 1-2hp extra above the 5hp increase, for $400.</p>

<p>If it is from ECU change entirely, it would be very interesting how they got the increase from the ECU? Was it fuel maps? If they tightened the A/F ratios, how much more can companies extract from the car?</p>

<p>I thought the exhaust sounded different. :)</p>

<p>It may be only 5 HP, but I can definitely tell the difference between my new '05 and the '04 demo we have hanging around like an “unflushable.”</p>

<p>I've always wondered about that stuff from Eaton, how can the Gen 5 SC be more efficient, yet not deliver more HP? </p>

<p>Efficiency is the output in relation to the input. For a constant amount of input, more efficiency has to mean more ouput. </p>

<p>Of course, it could just be the marketing guys at Eaton wanting to sell some new stuff and not really understanding the meaning of words. ;-)</p>

<p>I think this is a prime example as to why MINI's PR should be very careful about releasing production hp figures way ahead of time, specially in a country where people are obsessed by power and ratings.</p>

<p>Sure, 5hp is still 5hp and that is an important change to brag about but I personally think that MINI wanted to create so much excitment around the 2005 model year launch that they just spilled the beans too much and too soon. I can't wait to hear the complaints from owners thinking they were paying for 170HP and only got 168HP…Mazda RX8 anyone? LOL</p>

<p>Aside from the improved Eaton supercharger unit, ECU programming and revised exhaust, I think the change that will make the car “feel” faster off the line is the closer ratio 6-speed Getrag, more than anything else.</p>

<p>Is an additional 5hp and a close ration Getrag enough reason for me making me want to trade in my vault bank solid '04 MCS for a '05 MCS? No, I don't think so.</p>

<p>I actually took out Tate's '04 MC40 demo out on a MINI fun run last night. Tate's sales manager Ben (who's also an instructor at Summit Point Raceway) lead the way in my new '05 MCS. </p>

<p>Mind you, I was on all seasons run-flats compared to my car which is running performance run-flats – Ben was pulling away from me in my car while I was definitely having to rev the car a bit higher (and sliding around) to catch up. First gear is definitely faster compared to the '04 and the 2-3 gear change is also a bit quicker. </p>

<p>One very significant thing – before picking up my '05 MCS last week – I had forgotten that the stock exhaust was pretty pleasant. My new '05 MCS seems to have more popping and cracking (which sounds very cool) when you let off the gas at about 3200 rpms. The '04 MCS MC40 was definitely quieter and significant less crackle and pop. </p>

<p>In city traffic 1st gear lets me rocket away from stop lights (unless there is a Cobra SVT next to me). </p>

<p>Also a minor plug for Tate in Annapolis MD – I've bought four MINI's from Tate – they're awesome sales people and very enthusiastic car people. When I had finished up my paperwork, Chris one of the sales dudes, gave me a CD-ROM of about 20 high-res images of my car. I've never had that happen – but was pleasantly surprised.</p>

<p>“Lets join the fight against gaz guzzling” by lower the fuel economy of our cars!</p>

<p>Sorry couldn't resist. :)</p>

<p>example.</p>

<p>the V8 in the M5 produces 396 bhp (US) but is quoted as 400 in europe. i also recall some discussion when the car was released that the engineers at M were shooting for the 400 hp goal and their glee in having achieved it.</p>

<p>I wonder if the new LSD will improve the 0-60 times as well on the January '05. I would think the extra traction off the line will help, the same as it does for the EVO VIII, although not as dramatic.</p>

<p>could be, but unless they provide us with the units of measure we'll never really know, will we.</p>

<p>it really is a rediculous discussion, imo. there's only so much precision in the manufacturing process and engine will inevitably produce more or less power than the “identical” engine next to it. remember, we're not dealing with F1 engine tolerance levels here but a mass produced chrysler unit built in brazil. also things like temperature, barometric presssure and humidity will affect the performance of your engine. does anybody really believe that if they bench tested each and every Cooper S engine under identical conditions they'd produce identical power? granted we're probably talking about 1 or fewer standard deviations about 168 so our variance is probably less than 2-3 hp either way. but to quibble about 168 vs. 170 when dealing with a road car is imo a waste of time.</p>

<p>'04 MCS owners can opt for the JCW kit and upcoming 10-20HP upgrade and will be on par with any '05 JCW MCS.</p>

<p>I have a question that is slightly off topic so please forgive me if it doesn't totally fit here:</p>

<p>My '02 MCS has begun, once again, to exhibit the dreaded stumble, even though I'm running V.38 software. I'm wondering what others have done with their dealers to get this fixed once and for all. I'm near the point of selling the car.</p>

<p>Is there a way to take the 6 speed getrag coming out on the '05's and perform a change out and would this give me any improvements? Any suggestions that I can get the dealer to perform: i.e. replace the car and how, etc?</p>

<p>On the hot day we had here yesterday, the engine and airconditioner left me moving slowly with not much power.</p>

<p>From what I've read and understood the '05 will have better gearing and no stumble compared to the '02's.</p>

<p>To RB:</p>

<p>My mileage has only hit above 28 thrice on highway driving during two separate trips. One trip each was during February and July. I have an MCS'02. </p>

<p>My yearly average was 24.65 for '02-03 and currently 26.02 for '03-04.</p>

<p>I've found that the MCS trip computer overstates my mileage by additional 5mph when I make gas fillups versus my trusty calculator.</p>

<p>Matt Dolch: “Really my biggest performance complaint about the MCS is low-end torque and acceleration that is just ok…”</p>

<p>Well the new MCS is supposed to fix these two problems significantly. Drive one before you decide it's not worth upgrading. :)</p>

<p>Fudwell…</p>

<p>According to my MA and Philip Kalor of MINI USA CD 38 had nothing to do with the “Stumble”.</p>

<p>I have had mine diagnosed and probed up the ying yang and still have it.</p>

<p>The best thing I have found is turnig off the DSC, that seems to help…a little.</p>

<p>My last trip from LA to Los Gatos, Ca. I got 25 mpg. I ran up interstate 5 most of the way and ran between 85 and 125, with the help of my Escort Passport 8500, all the way.</p>

<p>ChrisW…</p>

<p>other than the stumble, MINI can't seem to get rid of, I have no complaints with my engine. Runs great and have had no mechanical problems. Build quality, which is controlled by BMW, is another story. have you had problems with your engine?</p>

<p>Curious.</p>

<p>RB</p>

<p>For David Bunting, Post 6</p>

<p>I've taken the path you've suggested, all along. I still don't see the new numbers. I even cleared out my history and saved internet pages, and it still won't update.</p>

<p>I know the changes are true, but to actually see them would lower my heart rate a bit. : )</p>

<p>Elmor..</p>

<p>I hear ya brother.</p>

<p>Maybe I'll try CD38. As stated above I was told it had nothing to do with the big “S” but if you found any help with it I will try.</p>

<p>What part of the country do you live in? It seems, with mine, that heat, any temp over 75, is the main culprit, below that and I'm fine.</p>

<p>But other than the “S” and the thump in my steering I'm sticking with it. I mean I've got everything else fixed and can't imagine driving anything else, even though one of my neighbors just got a 40th Anniversary Porsche that is looking real sweet.</p>

<p>…RB</p>

<p>RB,</p>

<p>I live in Atlanta.</p>

<p>My memory remembers it like this: With previous versions, i.e. V. 35? the car stumbled at 70 and above. With V. 36 the car stumbled at 80 something and above. After V.38 I don't have too much stumble when not running the ac. Turn the ac on no matter the temp, the car power plummets.</p>

<p>Like so many others, I've been dealing with this since I bought the car. It's not exactly the feature of owning a Cooper S that I sold myself on. </p>

<p>I simply want a car that works and has the power when the gas is pressed regardless if the AC, DSC, or anything else is running. Finding myself out in the middle of traffic because the engine has decided to stumble is absurd. (sorry, I'm a tad frustrated….ok, really frustrated!)</p>

<p>In general, I didn't buy the MINI thinking I was getting some high performance car that would take on V6's and above. I thought that I was getting a well put together auto with a parent company with a good history. I was looking for a car with flare and fun to drive, good mileage, and well thought out materials.</p>

<p>Never had the AC cause any probs with the power. Strange.</p>

<p>…RB</p>

<p>petsounds,</p>

<p>I can understand your concerns…</p>

<p>Sad to hear that it's troublesome for your '04.</p>

<p>Petsounds…</p>

<p>I was relating my experiance with my '02 MCS and tempurature does have an effect on my car! So speak for yourself…Thanx!</p>

<p>…RB</p>

<p>Well, I hate the stumble and it can be scary when it happens, but short of the A/C compressor cutting out at idle like some older Japanese cars, there is no way that the car will perform the same with A/C on as it will when it is off. The engine is just too small to make much power at 1500 RPM.</p>

<p>My car, an '02 MCS has ASC.</p>

<p>The weather here today is much cooler by 10 so I'm not having to run the AC.</p>

<p>Turning off ASC, and turning on AC, did nothing to with regards to the power comsumption that I could tell as I was driving up a hill. The car did not flinch. So I don't think this would be an issue in warmer weather such as yesterdays 88 when having the AC own produced horrible stalling, not cutting out, but I had to quickly press the clutch in to keep it from happening.</p>

<p>When the AC is off the car drives spunky like it should with some minimal bouts of the stumble. Like I said before; Had I known of this unknown feature I would not have bought the car. The car that I test drove showed no signs of problems when starting from a dead stop and I was in South Florida weather.</p>

<p>Anyone know of a way for me to get my money back or get a replacement from MINI?</p>

<p>There are lots of reasons that the HP could have gone up a few points. ANY revision to the engine internals suach as the cam or external power sapping stuff such as pullys, exhaust/headers/cats, air intake, SC and its gearing etc. etc. could be responsible.</p>

<p>Obviously any of these changes would require a re-tune so the ECU will have a different program. And yes, it could all be down to the re-tune of the ECU its-self.</p>

<p>This 168bhp figure is of course measured at the engine crank and not something you can easily dyno. A complete dis-assemble of a 2005 and 2004 model car would show you the differences.</p>

<p>But all of this doesn't actually matter. It is HP to the wheels that matters for speed. So a revised gear box with lower drive-train loss will increase HP to the wheels. Optimisation of the gearing will increase the acceleration. Anyone who has played around with gear ratio settings in Gran Turismo will have (virtual) first hand experince of this.</p>

<p>So 0-60 times and wheel dynos will show up the differences, but again it seems genrally accepted that dynos are not accrate to anything better than 5-10hp and there are so many factors that alter 0-60 1/4 mile and dyno readings such as fuel octane, air temp, engine temp, ECU self-adjustment that a sample of one car of each year will not be definative. Also there is HP varation from car to car of the same year and model so you need to do a very large survey on the same calibrated dyno machine to get some good data (like 50(?) cars of each year). So looks like a forum or two should keep a log of track times and dynos for the answers….</p>

<p>I think Matt has it right – there is a difference in European vs. American methods of measuring stuff. Their HP numbers are sometimes the same, but often slightly different from ours. Their method of measuring octane is also slightly different.</p>

<p><em>most</em> cars have an electric clutch that engages or dis-engages the AC compressor (which is driven off one of the engine pulls). It is <em>normal</em> that a W.O.T. (wide-open-throttle) will disegage the AC to maximise power/accelration in this situation. The only way to cofirm all of this onthe mini would be soemone with a copy of the technical service manual to look at the set-up and comment.</p>

<p>I got 03 cooper S and I don't have same problem that i have before after I learned that 91 octane is not 91 octane speacially when you buy this gas from ARCO. Arco gas have 10% alcohol or other have to comply CA EPA standards that they call clean air. Yeas it burns cleaner but,it is starting breaking some parts of your engine i.e. fuel pump etc.</p>

<p>When I fill up with Shell which they just comply with the standards, I started getting stumble and hicup the same with unocal 76, where unocal 76 have racing gas of 100 octane. Yeap I mistaken fill one full tank of 100 octane and payed 80 bucks for 12 gal.guess what, the car runs like a champ.</p>

<p>check it out maybe migth help by checking what you are buying from the pump.</p>

<p>More horsepower information:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.efunda.com/units/convert_units.cfm?From=161" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.efunda.com/units/convert_units.cfm?From=161</a></p>

<p>In my last post on this subject, I have to concede that I was totally wrong about brake horsepower. Brake horsepower IS measured at the flywheel (with no accessories) rather than at the driveshaft with accessories. Next time I'll check my sources before posting ;)</p>

<p>Mea culpa,</p>

<p>Jason</p>

<p>yes it makes me cry whenever ihear that my engine is made by chrysler, but for some wierd reason, it seems to be faster than any PT cruiser ive encountered so far! boo yah! haha</p>

<p>My 2004 MCS has never stumbled, but may I suggest that the stumble might be indirectly caused by low octane fuel. When the knock sensor detects detonation it retards the timing to lower the chamber pressure. Below about 2000 RPM, the effect can be stumbling. The need to retard timing will be exacerbated by:</p>

<p>1) High ambient air tempratures
2) High driving loads (Think: letting the clutch out)
3) Accessory loads (A/C)</p>

<p>Oh, also, I consistently get 30-31 mpg around town, but this drops to around 29 mpg. The trick is low RPM and low throttle opening when you don't need them. If you're stuck in a line of traffic, don't buzz along at 3000 RPM. Put it in 6th and take your foot out of it. Use higher RPMs and throttle opening for accelerating. Oh, and don't make the mistake of using the engine for braking. The brakes are for braking. The engine is for accelerating. You can even pick up a little bit of mileage by putting your Mini in Neutral during long decelerations.</p>

<p>Finally, don't expect to get amazing fuel economy at high speeds in the Mini. It's aerodynamically challenged. You've undoubtedly noted how the back hatch of your Mini collects dirt. This is a large area of low pressure, and contribues to significant drag as you go faster. Aero drag increases with the square of your speed. Check it out for yourself. Find a flat chunk of highway, and use your cruise control. Watch the consumption on your computer at 70 mph and 80 mph. A big difference.</p>

<p>And if it matters, I'm an engineer too. I work in aerospace now, but did a good bit of race car design and building years ago.</p>

<p>as far as power loss goes the ac on my 05 MCS surprisingly isn’t bad I live in Fresno and this summer we had almost 2 months of 100 degree plus. what did seem to mater was engine/intercooler temp</p>