MINIUSA Introduces Limited Slip Differential

Ken Dec 8th, 2004 Link

OK, I'll be the first to ask. Can it be retro fitted? And how does it differ from other after market systems? I don't know how people are driving a MCS w/JCW and getting all they can for their money.

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Gabe Dec 8th, 2004 Link

It cannot be retrofitted.

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Erik Dec 8th, 2004 Link

Thanks for the report, Gabe!

My MCS is on order with this option. I can't wait to try it out at the auto-x in a few months.

-Erik

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Ian C. Dec 8th, 2004 Link

Actually, I had MINI Peabody estimate a price to “retro-fit” … by replacing the complete 6 speed transmission! You do then also benefit from the '05 ratios, but with other required changes (eg: redesigned clutch) parts are about $3000 with probably a full days install on top! Probably cheaper to trade in to a new model …

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Gabe Dec 8th, 2004 Link

The term “cost prohibitive” comes to mind :)

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Alex F. Dec 8th, 2004 Link

My chilli red MCSC is on order with this option. I hadn't intended on getting it, but just before I ordered it became available. I figured, what the hell. To be honest, it sounds redundant to the DCS. I've never had a car with an LSD or DSC, so I'm not sure what to expect. I'll be sure to let you know next month, though it would be nice to get together with someone who has a MCS with the new gear ratios and w/o LSD in order to compare.

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Scott Dec 8th, 2004 Link

Ian – that's sad that I had the same thought! I was just way too afraid to find out the cost though.

Alex F. – I wish my '04 JCW MCS had an LSD. I'm consistently kicking in the DSC because of wheelspin. It would be great to have a LSD kick in first to drive the non-spinning wheel before DSC kicks in and bogs the car down.

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Alex F. Dec 8th, 2004 Link

From what I gather, it seems that the LSD retards wheelspin by diversion of power vs. braking (as the DSC does). This should lead to maintained traction at speed without the drag and concommitant loss of power imposed by the DSC's individual wheel braking. Is that about right Scott and Gabe?

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scooblymonchee Dec 8th, 2004 Link

It's not only DSC but ASC that will be “delayed” by an LSD. After spending the day driving my 04 JCW around in the rain with ASC on and off. I came away feeling fine about not having an LSD. It's actually a lot of fun to play with the throttle and ride the edge of traction through a corner.

To quote Randy Webb on the value of an LSD on the track: “On the track, you will notice a small difference if you have learned to respect the throttle, and a large difference if you are used to slamming the gas on and off – really. It makes the car easier to drive fast, but only made about a tenth of a second difference at the track using the proper driving technique.”

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Gabe Dec 8th, 2004 Link

That's a good way to put it.

Here's my take (and I am no where near as experienced with this stuff as Randy Webb):

From my experiences the 163hp MCS doesn't need LSD out of the box. However the 170hp version almost does. And if you're planning on doing anything to the car (be it a pulley or even the JCW kit) I'd want it personally. But it's not that the car is unusable without it (far from it). It's just that the car's power will be a bit easier to modulate.

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Alex F. Dec 8th, 2004 Link

Well, than I made the right decision, because my plan is to heavily modify the car in three years once the warranty is up. I've test driven the '05's and at 169 they are definitely zippy. At 240+ hp, I can only imagine it will scream and the LCS (along with a modified suspension) will probably make a big difference then..

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Roberta Vannimartini Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Dear MINIUSA,I would like to know if is it possible to install the Limited Slip Differential after having bought the car or if it is just an optional of the new future mini. Thank you very much. Roberta Vannimartini

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michael Boice Dec 9th, 2004 Link

It would be interesting to compare a Mini derived LSD with a Quaife or some other after-market LSD. perhaps this will be possible at some point in the near future???

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aleks Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I am sure somebody will eventually pit the two versions against each other. GKN is respectable source, and I am sure that for street / mild track use it will be every bit as good as the quaife.

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Micah Thompson Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Are the LSD and DSC redundant at all? I am currently considering an '05 MCS (or waiting for a Mk5 VW GTI) but need to keep the purchase price as low as possible, and therefore am considering just the LSD without DSC.

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aaron-t Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Ian, did MINI Peabody mention a retro-fit for earlier '05s? I can't imagine a tranny swap would be needed there.

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Nicholas P Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Micah, DSC is a life-saving device that NO driver can replicate (individually brakes each wheel, so would need 4 brake pedals to come close)…

get rid of some other option that is cosmetic and get DSC…

but keep MFSW!

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Micah T Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Thanks for the advice Nicholas. I have already minimized cosmetic options (e.g., non-metallic paint) and only included functional items like LSD and xenon headlights in my build. As you suggest it is probably worth an extra $10 a month for the extra safety of DSC, especially in a state like Colorado where the roads can be snowy almost any time of year.

PS: I keep waffling between a MCS (which I test drove and loved) and the new GTI, which has recieved excellent reviews so far. I have an '98 GTI VR6 with a Quaife LSD now, and feel some loyalty to VW…but the MSC is just so damn “right”!

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Do yourself a favor and get DSC. You won't regret it in the snow.

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Bill Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Can I retro-fit a MINI to my LSD (sorry, couldn't resist)….

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Nicholas P Dec 9th, 2004 Link

VW is nice, but doesn't have the entire MOTORING EXPERIENCE of a MINI…if u already drove it and it felt “right” then u will kick urself for a long time until u finally trade in your VW (for much less than u paid for it) for a MINI…

not many cars as inspiring as a MINI…

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allan MICHAEL Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I had 3 VW's… nicely modede… before i got my '05 MCS… without the LSD i would never go bak to VW. If you really test drove a MCS (salesman hanging on), you know there is really no comparison.

Get the MCS (& DSC)!!!!

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Micah T Dec 10th, 2004 Link

I must admit that you guys make a compelling argument for the Mini over VW! In addition Webb Motorsports is right here in the area, so some basic tuning options will be no worries (although I am not really sure it needs much, perhaps a 15% pully to account for the thin air here). Thanks for the support.

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David S. Dec 10th, 2004 Link

I sorry but you drop the clutch in a JCW with or without LSD the tires are going to spin (need to learn how to drive the car first). The only way that the LSD will be handy is coming out of a corner at an SCCA event. If you have no intent on competing you are wasting your money!!! Simple as that!

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Aaron P Dec 10th, 2004 Link

I autocross my '03 MCS regularly, and while I usually only hit the DSC on the street when it's wet and I'm turning a corner, when I autox with race rubber and in the dry (and DSC off) I get wheelspin on a regular basis. I have learned to modulate power to avoid it, but the LSD that the '05 I have on order to replace the '03 will allow me to put down more power where I've previously been limited by wheelspin. I wouldn't upgrade from my '03 to an '05 if it weren't for the LSD, although I don't really expect to notice it except when autox'ing or when on the street exiting a tight corner in the wet.

A great option, I'm very pleased with MINI for adding it.

–>Aaron

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Honolulu Old Guy Dec 11th, 2004 Link

Re scooblymonchee comment: Without LSD, you're not “riding the edge of traction” as you claim. Instead, you're spinning away power that LSD would put to the pavement way before you're near the limits of lateral grip. My '04 MCS w/JCW is noticeably crippled by lack of LSD when I attempt to power out of tight curves even in the dry. RWD cars can spin the drive wheels to a certain extent and still get acceptable overall performance — FWDrivers like the MINI no can. If the factory LSD really can't be retrofitted, then I'm either getting the Quaife or going all the way with factory trans, dif and clutch replacement. $4 or 5 G's aren't unreasonable prices. My kid's '01 Mustang Cobra had a close-ratio 6-speed and new rear end (4.10) installed for $6 G's, and they were worth every cent.

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nick tripp Dec 12th, 2004 Link

An 01 Mustang Cobra is no MINI, but it sounds nice to be your kid. :)

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Micah T Dec 13th, 2004 Link

I have to agree that a limited slip makes a big difference on a FWD car . I have Quiafe LSD on my '98 GTI VR6, and it really helps to dial out understeer on tight corners (combined with sticky rubber like Falken Azenis Sports). Instead of pushing severely (because of that iron block motor in front of the front axle), the car will “bite” and track in a fairly neutral manner, which is much quicker and much safer through tight corners and transitions. It really is remarkable how it works, and you can feel it “pulsing” through the steering wheel, and the car really does track right where you steer it.

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chigh Dec 13th, 2004 Link

I took laps at Mid-Ohio at the end of April in my modifed (190 HP)S wihout LSD and in a One-Lap 225+ HP S with a Quaife. I had my car tuned for an earlier, higher torque boost (19%) and the LSD car had a 15% pulley which produced better acceleration and a higher top speed at higher revs. They cars equalled out on the long back straight, but in the twisty and hilly back section the Mini with the Quaife could be driven out of turn and stay on the throttle over the rise. In my car, the elevation change produced wheel spin like an outboard motor coming out of the water. I had to lift at the crest, then accelerate when the wheels weighted again after the crest. Still, the 19% pulley gave me a better pull and the lap times weren't much affected. With the same pulley, I would give the edge to the Quaife, but again, not by enough to have me spend the $2,000 to buy it and have it installed. In most cases, it's going to come down to the driver.

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David S. Dec 14th, 2004 Link

I completely agree on “it' going to come down to the driver”! It would still be nice to have been offered LSD back in '03 and '04 :(

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Johnny Dec 14th, 2004 Link

Hey,

All this leads back to my neophyte question – how does the LSD interact with the DSC? LSD is great on a track, presumebly with DSC off, but what about real world? When will which kick in? Thanks so much for any detailed response.

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carcounselor Dec 15th, 2004 Link

LSD delays the onset of the ASC (traction control) portion of DSC kicking in because the LSD reduces the tendency for the inside front wheel to spin e.g. when applying power out of a corner. it should also reduce the need for DSC intervention to keep power-on understeer at bay (i.e. the tendency for a front drive car to go straight rather than turn when the power is applied.) DSC/ASC control wheelspin by cutting engine power and/or pulsing the brakes – obviously both slow you down and the later may contribute to…

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carcounselor Dec 15th, 2004 Link

…fade/overheating. LSD on the other hand does not slow the car and allows the driver to 'keep his foot in it' for longer. If the DSC were not reprogrammed it would still come into play less often but if BMW has gone one step further and raised the threshold of intervention as suggested above you'll also have a car that can be driven with more vigor with the DSC on. (Think the Competition mode of the Corvette's Stabilitrak vs. the default mode.) To date BMW systems have been relatively intrusive – this may be a step in the right direction.

The S needed the LSD less with the old gearbox ratios than it does now (more torque multiplication – perhaps there was a method to BMWs madness after all?) On paper I was thrilled to hear BMW dropped the ratios, from the driver's seat I wasn't so sure. The limited slip option goes a long way towards making the Mini a serious driver's tool – the Integra Type R and Sentra SE-R are both paragons for FWD handling and both had LSD. If you are planning to up boost or lightenen the wheels or flywheel the benefits will be even greater.

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Johnny Dec 16th, 2004 Link

Carcounselor,

Thank you very much indeed for taht answer. While I never plan on hitting a track, I am enough of a curvy backroad seeker that LSD sounds like it will be worth it for me. Really, much obliged for your insight. I put my order in January!

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Sonny Dec 17th, 2004 Link

From the pictures I have seen, the new LSD must be a Super LSD, an invention by the Tochigi Fuji company. The Super LSD was awarded by SAE the year it came out. Tochigi Fuji is a Japanese company which was recently taken over by GKN. The Super LSD is also used in various Mazda cars.

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Sonny Dec 17th, 2004 Link

Here's a link to info about the Super LSD http://www.arstechnica.de/auto/differential/bauarten/super.html

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Stuart Dec 21st, 2004 Link

I've had drive in the LSD equipped 'S' and it really does make a difference. Imagine a street in London, late at night, freshly watered by the cleaning crew truck, these roads are slippery at the best of times, so the lights change, and you floor the throttle and go. The 'LSD' takes you off in a straight line, no bucking , snaking and less of the flashing strobes on the dash, it just goes and goes. 0 to 30 mph with LSD, amazing. The pre LSd 'S' in the same situation would have you and the car sitting in a store window. Can't reccomend it highly enough

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