MINUSA Officially Introduces the MCS Auto

Barry / 10 Ball Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I remember a BMW salesman telling me that something like 90% of the BMWs imported into the US were automatics. Hope the MINI/MCS don't follow this trend.

-B

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Steven Diver Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I realize that a good semi-automatic transmission these days can/will outperform a manual transmission, but the purist in me is still pained to see an automatic transmission on the Cooper S .

Now if we are talking a brand new Ferrari F430, with a semi-automatic gearbox, that is a different story.

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Since this isn't a true semi-automatic (or auto-manual) transmission but a typical steptronic style automatic it will be decidedly slower than a manaul.

Autoweek.nl is saying it'll take the MCS auto 7.9 seconds to get from 100km/h (0-62mph) compared to 7.2 for the manual.

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Vic Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I find it amazing that so many want to impose their limited view that having an auto somehow distracts from the MINI experience.

I have a CVT after years of cars with a manual and I find that the CVT ADDS to the MINI experiece.

The new S-auto with paddles….that's motoring!

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dgszweda Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I hope I can retrofit this item in my Mini.

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

:)

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Iain Dec 9th, 2004 Link

OK, so I keep hitting wrong button. Sorry!

My two points:

1. I tried to buy a BMW 530i with a 5-speed a few years ago. The dealer had none to test drive (nor any 330i with 5 speed) and there were no cars coming from the factory for 6 months. I had the same experience when looking at a new 530i a few months ago. So much for the 'ultimate driving machine'.

2. I predict the same will happen with the MCS – the vast majority will be automatics, such that the 6-speed becomes rare (good for my 04 MCS JCW). The folks who miss out are the ones who never drive the 6-speed – this is a great gearbox.

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ANTSMINI Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I dont see why everyone feels the need to bash automatics, if you dont like em you dont have to buy them. Some people do like them however. A MINI is a MINI, less whining….more motoring. If they didnt think and auto MCS would sell they wouldnt be making one.

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John Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Sigh… Must this goofy debate start again? I just don't understand the reasoning or the issue.

We are witnessing engineering Choices (with distinct strengths and weaknesses) being Presented (a financial decision) to a willing Market (validated demand). Why should people be unhappy about that?

Gabe, Thank You for objectively posting details, facts, reviews, opinion, rumors, and fun on your website. The “MINI experience” has been improved by MotoringFile. I click over here very often.

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RHT3 Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I have no opinion about the new tranny. I always enjoy MORE OPTIONS though.

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Jack07734 Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Why an automatic? Why not. If I had to do a lot of city driving The last thing I would want is a manual. Stop first, second, stop, first, stop. Time to replace the clutch. Who want's that.

There are also folks that for one reason or another can't have a manual transmission. I have a friend that is wheel chair bound. She has a Cooper cvt with full hand controls. You can bet she will be placing an order for a automatic s.

So enough with the automatic bashing.

Cheers, Jack

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Jack07734 Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Why an automatic? Why not. If I had to do a lot of city driving The last thing I would want is a manual. Stop first, second, stop, first, stop. Time to replace the clutch. Who want's that.

There are also folks that for one reason or another can't have a manual transmission. I have a friend that is wheel chair bound. She has a Cooper cvt with full hand controls. You can bet she will be placing an order for a automatic s.

So enough with the automatic bashing.

Cheers, Jack

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I think a lot of people look at an automatic in a sporty car as yet another way of minimizing the skill necessary to drive well.

But the thing you have to remember is we have been doing this for years. From the addition of disc brakes and power steering the auto industry has been trying to create cars that perform at high levels for the masses. The addition of ABS and DSC go further down this path. And yes automatics conceivably allow people who have no idea how to drive a manual to just get in a drive.

But what about us who only drive manuals and scoff at the idea of a slushbox. Are we not being a bit hypocritical considering we're all taking advantage of other technology that allows us accomplishes similar feats?

Maybe it's just that the automatic crosses a certain line that some people feel is sacred.

As I've said many times on here I'm personally not a fan of automatic transmissions (although ask me how I feel about SMG or DSG!). However I don't feel that that my opinion should cloud other people's views. I think it's just important to give everyone as much information as possible to make up their own minds on the issue.

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Nathan Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Can't we all just get along. While my wife and I love our manual MC 5 speed, (which she just learned to drive with) and says she will never go back to automatic, I do agree that there is nothing wrong with an MC or MCS with auto. What I think some are worried about, is that the manual tranny's will become harder to get and require longer wait times when ordering in the future. I too hope this will not be the case.

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Ryan Dec 9th, 2004 Link

It doesn't bother me that Mini is adding an automatic to the S-line. However, what does concern me is the possibility of seeing a Mini on every corner now – such as the PT Cruiser. Perhaps it's already too late for that as Minis have been proliferated our countryside in the last three (almost) years. I don't know, but there have been many people that I met on the road who said, “I would love to have one of those cars, but I just don't know how to drive stick.”

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Nathan Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I rather see more cool looking MINI's than crappy PT Cruiser's. Remember, MINI's were orginally made for the masses not elitist.

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COOPR SS Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Anybody remember what the gear ratios are for the the current 05 6 speed? For comparison to the new auto ratios.

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dan Dec 9th, 2004 Link

“However, what does concern me is the possibility of seeing a Mini on every corner now “

In Northern NJ & places like Brooklyn, they already are on every corner. That was with just 3 models – now you're adding 3 more to the mix – an auto MCS and the drop top versions of both. 6 models, lot's of MINI's. But at least they all look good.

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Pete/MyMini Dec 9th, 2004 Link

If you have to deal with any major metropolitan area traffic snarls, like I-95/I-595 in south Florida, you too would appreciate an auto! Besides, you can always add the standard goodies to boost it! Personally I think it's a good idea…

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ANTSMINI Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Whats wrong with more MINIs on the road? Id rather see that trend continue than more SUVs. And we arent driving Ferraris here, its an 17k car, so expect to see more and more on the road.

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Robert Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Ok, maybe it is a European thing… but just as manual trannys are the norm across the pond, automatic trannys are the norm over here. Most drivers just don't like to shift for themselves, aren't taught in driver's ed how to use a manual, and are willing to spend $$ for the convenience of automatic shifts. I really don't buy the argument that a manual is such a pain in traffic. That's an easy scapegoat. I live in L.A. and if I find a manual transmission ok for L.A. traffic, I'd imagine it'd be o.k. elsewhere.

I don't have a problem with the automatic per se, but I do regret the inevitable “watering down” of the S line from enthusiast machine to common vehicle. In a general way I do judge performance cars on the auto option. One reason I was drawn to the S to begin with (besides power and suspension) was the fact that the manual only option limited its appeal. However, as was previously stated, the MINI was meant as a vehicle to be enjoyed by the masses. That is part of the vehicle's charm. I can live with that. Seeing a John Cooper Works with automatic: that's a whole different ballgame…

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Jeff Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I've had a CVT Cooper for 21 months and love it! On the highway I shift to SD (sport drive) get the rpms up, click into 6th and I'm gone! I got a S Cooper on the highway awhile ago and suprised him at how quick a CVT can be. Manual or CVT all the Minis are just plain fun to drive. I know, I've got two!

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John Dewey Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Different transmissions for different needs.

Every time you let out the clutch at a stop you wear the clutch just a little. Changing the clutch on a front wheel drive car involves a lot of labor and some specialized tools. With a traffic light every 200 yards, and stop and go traffic on the expressway, I take my automatic car into congested traffic, and my MINI S or my Mini Classic elsewhere.

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iDiaz Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I can just see it now.

Before: “Ooh, that one has a spoiler!” – “Sorry ma'am, that only comes in manual.” – “Oh, I hate manual. I'll take a Cooper.”

After: “Ooh, that one has a spoiler!” – “Yes, that's the S, the sports car of the line.” – “Yeah yeah, whatever–that spoiler is so cute! Where do I sign?”

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iDiaz Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I agree, Robert. Before now, the Cooper was there for the masses, while the S was reserved for the motoring enthusiast. Now it's all the same. Prepare to see more Cooper S' going 55 in the fast lane. ;)

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dgszweda Dec 9th, 2004 Link

To me the Mini is not a Mini with an automatic. Not bashing auto's since one of my cars has one and I like it, but I just don't think it matches the Mini's personality (just my opinion though). -> It is a sport car which will suffer almost a whole second off of it's 0-60 times, again going in the reverse direction of the whole goal of the Mini being a “go-kart” -> Secondly it is a British/German car. How un-European for Mini to have an auto in it. ->It will water down the line. I am kind of glad with what seems like a lot of enthusiasts driving the car. With the introduction of the automatic we are opening it up to a ton of people which diminishes it's popularity some (I know sounds elitest huh!)

Anyway, no way we are stopping BMW from doing it.

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DCE Dec 9th, 2004 Link

If they offered an SMG option I'd seriously consider it. Crawling along the 405 Fwy in SoCal with a manual is no fun. But heading into the canyons, or just driving down an open boulevard is so much more fun with a stick. Since BMW eventually plans to do away with regular sticks in favor of the SMG (lower warranty costs), why not offer it sooner rather than later?Perhaps the next MINI will have that as an option.

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I really can't see BMW doing that on standard cars anytime soon. Especially with a low priced car like the MINI.

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edward n. Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Repairing an automatic tranny in a FWD car is no walk in the park either. :)

Maintenance for either still needs to be done. Removal of either is the same pain in the you-know-what.

The auto tranny itself is more complex. “Sorry, your upshift module is dead.”

Stop and go traffic is hell on any tranny. Maintenance and repair is not a valid point for argument of which one is better.

The convenience of not stepping on the clutch may be a bennie. I used to do deliveries in the NYC area and in NYC. When I drove a standard, it never bothered me.

BMW is in the biz of making money. To make money in the States, an auto tranny is necessary. I remember seeing a stat back in the 80's of the ratio of slushboxes to manuals, 87:13.

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petsounds Dec 9th, 2004 Link

The only valid reason anyone has for driving an automatic (aside from physical impairments) is someplace like San Francisco with a ton of steep hills. I drive my S in LA traffic every day and have no problem. It makes breaking out into the backroads and canyons just that much more enjoyable. (“how can you know pleasure without pain?”)

As to Gabe's comment, I think the reason so many of us draw the line at the manual transmission is that it is so central to the operation of the car. Putting hand to shifter is almost like a physical connection to the engine. People who prefer a manual transmission, I think they tend to see an automobile as an extension of themselves. It's sort of a philosophical difference — are you in control of your car, or does your car control you?

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Jim Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I really cannot understand all the bashing of an automatic in the S. I test drove both a MINI and a MINI S a few weeks back and my wife and I were sold on the car and are now ordering an S with the automatic. I kept delaying because I wanted an S, but my wife cannot drive a stick (and I have tried to teach her). Even though the MINI will be my car, we sometimes need to swap cars (our other car is a pick-up). We had thought we were going to the dealer to rule out buying the MINI (too small – not safe – no visibility on the road, which all turned out to be not true), but for obvious reasons we were sold in a matter of minutes. I was very excited when I learned that I can now get the S with an automatic, for my wife and I the best solution.

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Jeff Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Let me see if I got this: CVT = Mini for the masses Manual = Mini for the serious car driver. Whatever, I'm having fun with the masses. A Mini is what we drive, it's not who we are.

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gmini Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I hope I get to drive a JCW equipped MCS Automatic sometime. I admire the way the cvt moves , and will eagerly anticipate a sampling of the geared variety.

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

From what I've heard the JCW MCS will not ba available with an Automatic.

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Nicholas P Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Also, when you drive a manual, you are more likely to be paying attention to the road and also to not be eating/reading/talking on cell phone/etc…

i wonder if there are stats on # of accidents where manual was at fault vs where auto was at fault… (% of overall cars for that type of transmission)…

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GMINI Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Having not read this entire monster, i am thrilled to see the point i was now going to make has just been made. My good friend tried to argue that autos are safer because they are less distracting… how unnerving.

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john Dec 9th, 2004 Link

there's a big difference between ABS, DSC, etc and the manual vs automatic debate.

ABS and DSC perform functions we couldn't perform on our own, due to limitations in our bodies.

how would we duplicate the process of ABS working in a manual fashion? i don't know anyone who can simultaneously watch 4 lights indicating wheelspin and use their 4 legs (!) to activate 4 individual brake pedals, all within a split second. if those people exist, maybe they should get manumatic ABS :)

so, while ABS removes human involvement where we are of limited use, automatic transmissions remove us from the driving process where we CAN be an active part if we choose to.

some of us find this gear selection process satisfying and some don't, just like some people prefer to shoot photographs with a manual SLR on black and white, self-developed film, while some prefer a point-n-click digital.

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ANTSMINI Dec 9th, 2004 Link

iDiaz, your comments seem a little assinine to me. Because some drives an auto they are not a “motoring enthuasiast”, Im willing to bet Ive gone to more MINI meets in the past month than you have in the entire ownership of your vehicle. I go to one or two meets every week here in NY. I also sold MINIs for six months. Clearly though I am just driving 55 in the passing lane, which would explain my six tickets right? If you such an elitist, at least drive a car that fits that persona, cause your driving a 20k car, not a porsche not a BMW, not a Lambo, not a Ferrari.

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Jeff Dec 9th, 2004 Link

John, I agree, not everyone prefers the same thing. Being different is good! But the point most people miss on the CVT is the choice of being active in controlling the car by shifting through the 6 speeds of the CVT manually or throwing it in drive or sport drive and cruise along. I think the CVT is misunderstood by most.

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loki Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Does anyone happen to have a link to a bigger jpeg of the steering wheel controls? TIA

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Chris T. Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Give me a break. If you're going to criticize Mini for making an auto S because of this, then you should also criticize them for creating a car that has a really appealing design. Performance is only half of the Mini equation and you probably wouldn't have one right now if it didn't look as good as it does.

I think you guys are forgetting that wait times on these cars are still really long. I live in the Northwest and to get a Mini here takes more than a year. Do you think someone who comes into a dealership and so flippantly changes their mind on what model to get just because one has a spoiler and one doesn't is also going to endure a waiting period that long? Probably not. I ordered my car last December with the anticipation that an auto version of the S would come out with the 05 models, so when it's all said and done I'll have waited 14 months to get my car. Do you think I'm any less of an enthusiast than you?

This kind of snobbery really goes against the Mini attitude.

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CA Dec 9th, 2004 Link

MINI USA built the MINI and it was billed as the “car for everyone”. The Auto S is no different. Many people in the states are too worried about eating, talking on the phone or putting on make-up and do not want to shift in traffic. It should not matter what trans is in the car. We all motor in our own ways and that is the true spirit of Motoring.

I think that it is rather elite minded to think that MINI should not offer a choice for the driver.

I am a MA and think that it is a great thing. It is going to open the MINI to a whole new set of people that love the MINI and do not/can not shift. Great move MINI!

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Chris – I don't disagree with the heart of your argument at all.

However many places in the country have the MC and MCS in stock and ready for delivery immiediately. So yes, people do walk in and walk out with a MINI everyday.

And on a side note if you want your MINI sooner I'd highly recommend ordering one outside the Northwest. A certain sponsor of MotoringFile comes to mind :)

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Me Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Sounds, like iDiaz and the manual tranny gang need to buy an F1 Maclaren now that's a motoring enthusiast car. Mucho macho.

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pw Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Think if this whichever way you want: An automatic MINI Cooper is now available with a supercharged 170hp engine and tuned suspension…

OR

The MINI Cooper S is now available with an automatic transmission…

Some people can't seem to swallow the second 'pill.'

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bob Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Just for speed and comparison. MINI cooper. Gear ratio 1st gear: 13.46 2nd gear: 7.67 3rd gear: 5.25 4th gear: 4.15 5th gear: 3.33

MINI S AUTO Gear ratio 1st= 4,044
2nd= 2,371 3rd= 1,556 4th= 1,159 5th= 0,852 6th= 0,672

Are these important to anyone, who is buying a MINI S? For some it doesn't matter for others….. Didn't have gearing on manual Gerag fot the S.

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Greg B Dec 9th, 2004 Link

If anything, the MCS Auto will decrease the number of MCS Manuals that roll off the line. So, the true driver will be rewarded with a rarer car that likely holds a higher long-term value (I presume). Plus, MCS Manual is the ONLY car that allows for LSD + JCW Works.

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Shep Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I got a CVT with some reluctance so my wife can share in the fun too. To my surprise, I found the CVT to be quite remarkable. About the only thing I don't like about it is the delay on takeoff when I hit the pedal. Otherwise it responds excellently to my needs. I hope that future developments will eliminate that delay. Most valuable, perhaps, is keeping both hands on the wheel at all times–really nice when cornering hard. So I guess I'm something of a convert to CVT. It's a lot better than I expected. All this controversy about auto/manual, DSC, etc. reminds me of what happened to cameras. Us “purists” initially were skeptical at each successive development which made the camera “easier” for a novice: built-in exposure meter, then auto exposure, then auto focusing, then auto stabilization, then digital… But they still haven't made it take a good picture by itself–that actually requires a photographer–who sometimes needs to override the auto controls.

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Me Dec 9th, 2004 Link

The “the true driver will be rewarded with a rarer car” what a load of snobbish crap! So people that drive automatic cars are not true drivers? What are they, fake drivers? Get off your high horses people, I agree with Shep, it's not the car transmission, it's the driver stupid.

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rpM Dec 9th, 2004 Link

the only problem with offering an automatic is when the demand for automatics becomes so great that it's financially unsound to offer a manual (in the US). I doubt this will ever happen with the MINI but it's happen with other cars.

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Chrisfb1 Dec 9th, 2004 Link

the automatic will sure increase the amount of Cooper S on the road. Who drives what it is really not a issue to me. I like the SMG, i dont know how the Cooper S will turn into. really like to try out.

My opinion. it is more fun to drive a manual than a automatic or even a paddle shifter car. it is cool to have a shifter in the car, but it really dont help much to me.

New trans is good, good to see things changes. again, manual drivers will still have the same fun experience like before. it just more people will think they have more fun than us from now on!

Again: automatic drivers “you think you know, but you have no idea”! peace!

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petsounds Dec 9th, 2004 Link

CA – You're right, the MINI Cooper was built for everyone. The Cooper S is designed for enthusiasts who want to push the car to its limits. An automatic transmission does not meet that goal. BMW seems to be switching from a purpose-built car to a market-built car, just like their BMW models. And with every automatic Cooper S you buy, you're putting another nail in the coffin of the Cooper S's future as a lean, mean motoring machine. Because the more market data BMW gets that affirms 90% of their Cooper S sales are going to automatics, you'll see MINI manual transmissions become harder and harder to find. Another poster seems to think that's good for rarity's sake, but I feel the manual is slowly heading towards extinction. BMW should take it upon themselves to educate consumers on the advantages of the manual gearbox — make it part of the MINI marketing mantra. But instead of embracing MINI's unique brand, they're caving into conformity in a pursuit for larger sales volume.

And of course you are happy about it CA: you are a Motoring Advisor. The more cars you sell, the more money you make.

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Vic Dec 9th, 2004 Link

And do you think that all of these anti-auto MINI-S mental giants are typing their 'brilliant' postings on Selectric Typewritters because they believe all real typing is done on a Selectic and not on a computer?

Why, the true typist would not think of using a computer…..

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Me Dec 9th, 2004 Link

“automatic drivers “you think you know, but you have no idea”!”. What the heck does that mean! Does that mean that they are more fun to drive? I do not disagree with that, what I disagree with, is saying that people who drive automatics are not real drivers. That, to me, is elitist. Futhermore, it is not in the true tradition of motoring. By the way, I own a manual transmission MINI.

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Alright gents… lets keep it clean and above the belt.

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Supercharged Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I didn't know that an automatic transmission could turn into such a blazing debate.

My personal feel is that the Cooper S is best when fitted with a manual transmission. There's no doubt that a manual transmission is more involving…

I still respect the decision of those who opt for the auto transmission. There are times when an auto is nice to have and there are time when a manual transmission is nice to have… it all depends on which is more important to the driver.

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Michael Dec 9th, 2004 Link

If it means more Minis and less SUV's then Hurrah! I can have fun in either, just slightly different kind of fun.

I'll miss the 'What is that car?' factor though.

Michael.

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jaz Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I think BMW/MINI will always make a manual for MINI, at least for many many years to come. That is until SMG technology has improved and no car maker offers a standard, and everyone is using an SMG. That could take 30 years. Or hey, CVTs may come into favor, which I feel is superior to most the current SMGs our there.

I've got a CVT MINI and just love it, and will not trade up to the auto MCS. The CVT MINI is a keeper — forever, as I'll never let it go. Perhaps in 10 years, I'll get another MINI and it will be an auto MCS, hopefully SMG by then.

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MrV Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I think all of you wimps should get rid of your air conditioners as well.

I real driver can do it with sweat from the Texas heat pouring down his face.

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Bill Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Maybe for a marque that's already plagued with the “chick car” stigma (according to some, not me), the addition of an auto tranny may be the straw-that- broke-the-camel's-back. I dunno, but hailing from the UK, auto trannies are just an anethema to me; we always learned to drive stick.

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MrV Dec 9th, 2004 Link

LOKI,

This is a picture (and review) of the CVT with paddle shifters. I imagine the new MCS will have a similar, if not identical look.

http://www.motoringfile.com/2003/09/03/TheCVTPaddleShifterReview

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Actually the paddles are very much like the ones found on the Z4's SMG steering wheel. You can see them in this very small pic: MCS Auto.

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Greg B Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Sincere apologies to everyone for using the language “true driver will be rewarded with a rarer car.” I did not intend it to incite an emotional response.

I think anyone who owns a MINI made the right decision, regardless of transmission. I see nothing wrong with furthering the MINI cause and making the S appeal to more people. I was simply trying to make the point that all those out there who prefer the manual can still feel good about their preferred product being differentiated from the other 4 models.

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Nice save Greg ;)

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dan Dec 9th, 2004 Link

“Also, when you drive a manual, you are more likely to be paying attention to the road and also to not be eating/reading/talking on cell phone/etc…”

I've seen plenty of MCS & 5 speed MC owners excited about bigger cupholders…I personally prefer a manual car – but you can easily get distracted just the same. There is a strong contingent out there that abhors the idea of an auto -MCS, just as there are those that are sad to see more MINI's on the road

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GSKChicago Dec 9th, 2004 Link

This debate is both unfortunate and somewhat overdone. However… :o)

I think there is nothing wrong with the MCS being offered with an automatic. I don't think it will diminish the heritage of the car nor force the car to become primarily available in auto.

However, I have had my '05 MCS for roughly 4 months now. I never owned a manual transmission car before and drove one maybe collectively 2 hours in my life prior to getting my MINI. I ordered the MCS knowing full well I would need to learn to drive a manual. I was prepared to take that leap. I am glad I did…

I am glad an automatic was not available when I ordered my car last June. If it was available in automatic, I likely would have ordered it as such and would possibly never learned the joy of driving “stick”. I LOVE having a manual transmission. To me, it does add to the driving experience. So I guess my only concern with an auto being available is that it may prevent other manual transmission “newbie's” from taking the plunge to manual.

This is not to say that I would be miserable driving an automatic MCS. I doubt it is possible to be both miserable and drive a MC or MCS.

So what's my point? I have no idea. :o) No, I guess my point is, much like many other people's point… Each to their own. Everyone has their own reason's for buying a Mini. Whether auto or manual, MC or MCS. Loaded or stripped.

Live and let live. Enjoy and happy motoring. :o)

G.

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Kyle Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I own a Cooper with a manual transmission, and while I have nothing against automatic transmissions on some cars (minivans, SUVs) it does NOT belong on a MINI Cooper S. For those who say it's about choice and it's only right to offer an automatic S but, correct me if I'm wrong, MINI does offer an automatic on the Cooper. It would be a sad day to see manual transmissions diapear completely. The S should be reserved for those who are enthusiasts, and that means driving a stick. If you want an automatic MINI then your only choice should be the CVT on the Cooper.

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jeffc Dec 9th, 2004 Link

This debate could go on forever, and the simple fact is the auto MCS is going to be sold, like it or not. Agree, disagree, love it, hate it, just be happy you have a MINI you enjoy, and have a community of drivers who feel the same way.

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ANTSMINI Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Its said how much people are afraid of change. Its not our fault manuals are going the way of to dinosaur. If CVTs were slushboxes F1 racing teams wouldnt be putting them in their cars, which they are. Crap like this a happens all the time, its just like all the Apple vs. PC debates I have with people. Learn to EVOLVE, its part of life.

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ANTSMINI Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Wow, I need to check spelling before I post. Haha.

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loki Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Thanks MrV! :)

And onto the topic of Manual vs. Autos, I find it humorous that this argument always comes up whenever the “purist” feel they need to uphold their way of driving. Even funnier is that most of these “enthusiasts” who think they can drive a manual proficiently, can't shift smoothly or even revmatch!

Granted the SMG on the E46 M3 I had is a different system, many akin'd it to having an auto and thus took the same purist stance. It has it's quirks on the street but on the track it's amazing… ironically you find yourself being tuned into the minuteness of the car movements since the task of manual shifting is taken over. Similar to someone's other senses being enhances after losing one. Yes, Schumi is such a wuss for having an automatic clutch in his F1 car. :D

Get your mini spec'd however you enjoy it. Are you going to deny a handicapped person the joy of driving a “S” just because they don't have a leg to use the clutch? Get real. The car will be fun regardless of it's tranny and we all know driving it is more than just how it shift gears.

-loki ('03 MCS)

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Scott Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Does this topic break the most posts on a single topic yet? :)

I'm glad the automatic wasn't available when I got my 04 MCS. Now my wife can't drive my car! That's a really good thing.

I know of a few people who have purchased Coopers because of back issues that limit them from using a manual. Some wanted S' but couldn't get one because of a physical limitation. Now they can – MINI is just opening up a new segment of S owners.

Would I get one – no. Should they be available – sure. It's still a heckuva fun car no matter what's used to get the power to the wheels.

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loki Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Doh, that pic is of the CVT on the old steering wheel…. :(

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Gabe Dec 9th, 2004 Link

This is not even close to the record comment mark :)

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Scott Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Really Gabe?!?! Holy cow! What is the high water mark for single topic posts?

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Bruce Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Well, I guess I must be an “old-fashioned snob” because I strongly believe an automatic effectively cheapens the Cooper S as an enthusiast's car. I know that in these politically correct times, many of you might think it is completely wrong for anyone to hold such a strong opinion. But consider this: most people are truly passionate about at least one thing in their lives. It could be the “the truest form of a musical style”, the “best fine wine, or how to “provide total customer service” or whatever. All that matters to these people is the thing they are passionate about be as close to “pure and undiluted” as possible. Please understand that for many of us car nuts, driving a manual transmission is an important part of our passion for all things automotive. The Cooper S was engineered as the sportiest version of the MINI, but the inclusion of an automatic version makes this top performance model of the MINI readily available to the lowest skilled group of drivers out there: those that can only drive automatics. (not trying to offend anyone, but not knowing how to drive a manual transmission does indeed reflect a driver less skilled)

Twenty-five years from now when our MINIs begin to be regarded as collectible classic cars, I think it will be the pre-January 2005 Cooper S models that only were available in the 6-speed model which will no doubt be judged as the purer and undiluted “driver’s cars”. I think that the post-January 2005 Cooper S models will probably be seen as when the S got all soft and lazy. (Just like the early Z-cars from the 70’s are prized among enthusiasts, but the larger, slower, and more option-laden ones from the 80’s are virtually hated)

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David Z. Dec 9th, 2004 Link

I grew up driving manuals. I love manuals. I still remember in my teens and twenties telling my Dad that I would never get so “old” and “over the hill” that I would lower myself to get an automatic! My 05 MCS Automatic is scheduled for a February delivery. So much for people who don't know how to drive a manual being the only one's ordering an automatic MCS.

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iDiaz Dec 9th, 2004 Link

————-ANTSMINI————–

iDiaz, your comments seem a little assinine to me. Because some drives an auto they are not a “motoring enthuasiast”, Im willing to bet Ive gone to more MINI meets in the past month than you have in the entire ownership of your vehicle. I go to one or two meets every week here in NY.

Hm. Would you be willing to bet on that? Ever been to a website called TEAMMIGHTYMINIZ? Not only do I attend meets, I organize them. I've gone through 5 complete sets of tires and three sets of brake pads in less than a year of ownership, all because I love nothing more than to drive my MINI with other drivers on a regular basis.

Let me know when you figure out how to execute a perfectly rev-matched (heel & toe) downshift in a slushbox automatic, and I'll concur that an automatic transmission is a gearbox for the motoring enthusiast.

Manual = performance. Sequential = performance. Automatic = convenience.

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iDiaz Dec 9th, 2004 Link

And lest we forget, the original Mini, designed for everyone to enjoy, only came in manual, despite advancements in automatic transmission technology.

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nfo Dec 9th, 2004 Link

wow….that was a long read.. my question is how many of you current CVT owners are gonna buy auto MCS's??????

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Shawn Dec 9th, 2004 Link

Wow, look at all the comments. I prefer manual transmissions and every car save one I've owned has had a manual tranny. I love my 6-speed Getrag. But there's nothing wrong with owning an automatic. Just 'cause one drives a automatic, there's no reason to put someone down as 'less skilled' or 'less than an enthusiast' about driving. I hardly think Michael Schumacher or Alex Zanardi are less skilled as drivers merely because they have shifting paddles on their steering wheels.

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Vanwall Dec 10th, 2004 Link

As for who's a real driver and who's not, it doesn't matter much to me, who have plenty of seat time in all manner of shift cars and automatics, I just like driving in a spirited manner, and don't feel threatened at all by other's perceptions. Besides, only wimps need synchros – double clutchin' and castor oil fumes are a man's way, dontcha know? ;-)

Get a clue, and just motor, alright? A MINI is a MINI, no matter what level of accoutrement. BTW, Sorry for those less informed and who continually spout out their own version of “truths” anyway, but, yes, the Classic Mini indeed came as an automatic. Measure twice, pal, cut once.

       BCNU,
     Rob in Dago

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archiegoodwin Dec 10th, 2004 Link

Of course my Austin Cooper S (I am old enough that it was not much used when I bought it) had a manual, but so did the (new) BMW sedan I bought at a time when BMW claimed that 70% of their cars sold in the USA had manual transmissions.

When BMW became the favored alternative to a Mercedes I protested that mass popularity would end BMW's development of sports-enthusiast cars. I sold my BMW and friends began to hide away their 2002tiis. That was over 20 years ago. The current M3 model has made feel like an idiot.

With more caution (and advanced age) I predict that the 2005 MCS automatic should not mark the decline of the enthusiast's Mini, as was stated above in this stream. However I do not know what to make of future larger replacements for the current Mini (at what size will the Mini name seem inappropriate?).

For now I'm just really pleased that, having lost my left leg/right wrist coordination, which was never very adept anyway, BMW is offering an MCS I will be able to drive.

Happy motoring, everybody.

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Robert Dec 10th, 2004 Link

I don't think we have to worry about losing a manual transmission in the MINI anytime soon… the rest of the world doesn't have an issue about needing an automatic tranny like we do in U.S.

I'm not against the march of technology and I have no problem with paddle shifting SMG style… that is a performance enhancer. Heck it blips the throttle and downshifts faster than a human can. The MINI “standard” automatic, however, is a performance detractor. Little/vague control over upshift and downshift points, slower acceleration times, etc. and the fact that the “convenience” driving crowd prefers the auto tranny does diminish the Cooper S's enthusiast leanings.

At least JCW won't build an automatic…

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Barry / 10 Ball Dec 10th, 2004 Link

Since I was the first one to spark this thread, not intending to start a forest fire, thought I'd better weigh-in again… Yes, automatics deserve their place in an automobile. I even have a 1-ton, diesel van that is only available with an auto. And if I lived in a location where the roads were so congested that biking would be as fast as driving, I'd probably own an auto. Also didn't mean to step on any physically challenged folks that can't drive a manual.

My point is: Why own the performance version of the Mini, the MCS, and take out a significant amount of the performance with an auto transmission? We are not talking about a state-of-the-art, dual-clutch auto in the Mini. The regular MC makes a better commuter car and gets better mileage – a great candidate for an auto. I guess it's ironic that the MCS auto will need more power to make up for the lost efficiency. Choice is cool, but I don't want to see the 6-speed become hard to get because of the rising demand for automatics. I see nothing wrong with having a Mini model that is ONLY available as a manual. Am I being an elitist and oozing with self-righteousness? You bet. Just like almost every proud Mini owner out there. -B

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jerry f. Dec 10th, 2004 Link

Our MINI is CVT and I am a “hard core” manual trans guy but wife wanted to drive the MINI and refused to learn manual. I would consider a slushbox MINI-S ONLY for the addt'l power BUT IMHO the hot auto set-up would be a CVT MINI-S. I find the CVT technology to be quite entertianing. How about working on that BMW???

I think its ridiculous to think the offering of an auto Mini-S diminishes the breed. I wouldn't order a paddle shift 360 Modena BUT does that make it any less of a sportscar? How many of you hard core stick shift guys would toss back the keys to that car if they were handed to you?

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Nathan Dec 10th, 2004 Link

Lest we forget too, the original Mini, designed for everyone to enjoy, only came in manual because it was too expensive to put in an automatic. Remember, the car had to be economical too. Also remember that Sir Alec Issigonis, the original designer of the MINI, thought that manual transmissions were barbaric. He actually envisioned a day were there would be no manual tranny autos. So, put that in your tail pipes manual tranny fanatics.

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Nathan Dec 10th, 2004 Link

oops “where there would”

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loki Dec 10th, 2004 Link

I wish BMW would take out the power steering, power windows, A/C, ABS and traction control too, plus not offer a convertible or the sunroof option. They dilute the driving experience so much for me and I can't stand it when other people can have the option to order such a luxury item or get them as standard…. what were they thinking!?!?! ^_^

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hn Dec 10th, 2004 Link

quote from Shep: Most valuable, perhaps, is keeping both hands on the wheel at all times–really nice when cornering hard.

Uh, manual or not, you always want both hands on the steering wheel when corning hard. If you need to shift during a corner, learn how to drive first please.

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Robert Dec 10th, 2004 Link

Gotta love the way this thread is going:

Elitist drivers v. “car as appliance” convenience drivers

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Frank Dec 10th, 2004 Link

“And lest we forget, the original Mini, designed for everyone to enjoy, only came in manual, despite advancements in automatic transmission technology.”

Posted by iDiaz.

Hey iDiaz, let me give you a historical tid bit that may completely take you by surprise. Alec Issigonis, the “Father” of the original Mini was the number#1 promoter of the creation and development of “Gearless” automatic transmissions (Read CVTs). Issigonis was onced interviewed by Car Magazine in the UK back in 1979 (Probably before you were born) and he referred to the manual transmission as the “Barbaric Stick” and back then he envisioned a future MINI with a “gearless” automatic transmission as he called them the “Wave” of the future. Remember that Issigonis was a man of vision and an automotive genius and for this “enthusiast” to promote an automatic transmission sure would have raised eyebrows during that time.

Today's MINI Cooper CVT goes in line with Alec Issigonis' vision of what the ultimate MINI should be. Issigonis died in 1988, so obviously he did not get to see the current Cooper CVT carrying on his wishes.

Issigonis believed in pure “Raw Motoring”. This is a man that completely hated radios in cars, A/C and even seatbelts because he believed that ammenities distracted the driver from the business of “driving”.

If you ever get the chance, sit down in a classic Mini, to fully understand Issigonis ideologies.

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Frank Dec 10th, 2004 Link

I own a Getrag equipped 6-speed manual MCS and a ZF VT-1 CVT equipped Cooper. I love both equally

This is an old debate that is very emotional for most MINI driver's but in my back to back experience with both I personally don't have a problem motoring down the road on a stick shift/CVT/ and now the new Aisin 6-speed automatic slushbox equipped MINI.

There are way too many “Closet Racers” in these forums and that is fine with me. People that are narrow minded and elitist can't help it because every time they type a post their little issues become evident.

The truth of the matter is whether you are a seasoned manual driver or an automatic driver (CVTs are a very different beast for those that have the tendency to lump them together with hydraulically operated slushboxes), you are motoring in one of the finest European motocars in the American road at ANY price.

You are not less of a “Motorer” or an “Enthusiast” or whatever you wanna call it because you pick a Cooper S Auto over a manual version and viceversa.

This is such a divided country in ideologies that even this divisionism is blatant in the choice of one's car transmission.

Motor on and move on!

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iDiaz Dec 10th, 2004 Link

I stand corrected regarding the original Mini automatic. My mistake.

However, I do take issue with this comment:

“I think its ridiculous to think the offering of an auto Mini-S diminishes the breed. I wouldn't order a paddle shift 360 Modena BUT does that make it any less of a sportscar? How many of you hard core stick shift guys would toss back the keys to that car if they were handed to you?”

This reflects a lot of the other posts, in that some of you don't seem to understand the different types of transmissions.

A sequential manual gearbox, as is found in the Ferrari 360 Modena, BMW M3 SMG, and many others, is nothing like an automatic gear box. Power is connected and disconnected via a dry clutch, just as in a manual gear box. The difference lies in the actuation, which is modulated by a computer-controlled electrohydraulic system instead of your left foot. It shifts faster than you'll ever be able to, and is more efficient than a manual transmission.

An automatic, as found in every minivan, SUV, and now the MINI, is an entirely different animal. Power is transferred through a viscous coupling, the torque converter. It uses hydraulic pressure to multiply torque, and as such, creates many downfalls in performance. Total efficiency is much worst than a dry clutch, as is evidenced by the reduced 0-60 times. Shifting speed, though improved from previous automatics, still is not on par with a manual transmission in the hands of a skilled driver. The worst part, though–is that downshifts are not rev-matched. This creates a large jerk due to a huge weight shift when downshifting. Shifting weight uncontrollably is not only bad for performance, it's downright dangerous when driving spiritedly.

Manual transmissions can match revs in the hands of a skilled driver via heel & toe. Sequential manual gearboxes match revs with near-perfection, depending on the manufacturer. F1 cars (Yes, the one Michael Schumacher drives) use sequential manuals. Suggest putting a slushbox automatic in an Schuey's F1 car and see what he does. Chances are, you'll be laughed right out of the garage. ;)

Just because it has paddles to select gears does NOT mean it's endowed with the performance of a sequential. Don't be fooled! Ever see a sponsored road racer with an automatic transmission? If so, how'd they do? ;)

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loki Dec 10th, 2004 Link

LOL, there's no misunderstanding between a sequential and a slushbox on my part but thanks for over explaining it to those not as well informed. :D

The point is simple, the act of shifting the gears manually verses having a transmission that does it for you is what's being discussed. Yes, sequentials don't have the performance robbing torque converter but in the end you are pressing a paddle or slipping it into “auto” mode to have a computer change the gears for you.

For the debate at hand, manual shifting vs automatics, there is no difference between what you do in a SMG equipped car and the Step Auto, performance reasons aside. Heck, SMG is only enjoyable on the track, on the streets it's a cumbersome gizmo based on my ownership.

I just find it's unfortunately that there are those (and I use the term loosely) “purists” who feel so snobbish as to shout sellout whenever they feel their driving manhood is threatened.

The mini is by no means a limited production sports car, it's for the masses. Buy the version you like to enjoy and have fun driving alongside those who enjoy shifting it their way.

Can't we all get along?!?!?! :D

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jerry f. Dec 10th, 2004 Link

to idiaz…I do understand the difference in the 2 types of gearboxes and had my choice for w/ my M-3. The point of the comment was that the marketplace has dictated choices need to be there for those who are not inclined to use a pedal operated clutch and row gears. However, these owners are still driving high performance cars (be it BMWs, Ferraris Masers etc.) just not ones you or I would choose as our first choice and I doubt any one of these owners feels he has dimished his brand's performance reputation by not using a clutch pedal.

I still go back to my initial premise..a CVT Mini-S would be a perfect alternative to the slushbox MINI-S if BMW would just follow thru and develop it. Audi has a continously variable trans that can handle 200 hp..why can't BMW????

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jaz Dec 10th, 2004 Link

jerry — I agree wholeheartedly. Yes MINI please build a CVT MCS, as it would be totally awesome!

loki — SMG's do not come in an automatic mode. You have to use the gearshift or paddle shifters to shift all of them — there just isn't a clutch for your left foot to have to push.

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Gabe Dec 10th, 2004 Link

Actually BMW's SMG (and VW/Audi's DSG) has a fully automatic mode.

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Frank Dec 10th, 2004 Link

So iDiaz….. Since the CVT in the Cooper doesn't have a power robbing torque converter and has infinite gearing ratios and a fantastic “simulated” 6-speed steptronic mode, the I pressume the CVT is more “fitting” with the personaility of the car than a regular hydraulic slushbox, correct?

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Frank Dec 10th, 2004 Link

I think BMW should have taken the CVT a step further in the MCS application. The MCS/CVT combo would have been more desirable than the 6-speed Aisin slushbox; However, the Aisin gearbox is being used in other applications such as the Audi TT and I have read about rave reviews on the performance of the box in that particular car.

Gabe, do you think the R56 MCS will offer a SMG? Is the Aisin slushbox a “Stop Gap” measure until a suitable SMG or a beefier CVT is made available to the MINI?

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Vanwall Dec 10th, 2004 Link

Anybody remember the '60s Chapparals? Uh huh, just an old GM slushbox modded to race specs. On the Mulsanne, they shifted so quick and smooth, the Ford drivers noticed no matter how fast they shifted, the Chapps gained a little each time. It's a matter of how well the engineering is translated thru the gears, and the slushbox just did it better than a manual in that case.

As for street driving, most folks don't shift at race levels or even close, and blipping the throttle to match revs is hardly commonplace. That's why Porsche type synchros are the norm – they can handle even the baulkiest (hehe) ham-handers to the most sublime shifters. If you were truly great, you wouldn't need synchros at all. ;-) Yeah, I wish the 'S' had a more advanced automatic design, but there are plenty of potential MINI owners out there who would benefit from the one BMW chose. The more the merrier!

      BCNU,
    Rob in Dago

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iDiaz Dec 10th, 2004 Link

“So iDiaz….. Since the CVT in the Cooper doesn't have a power robbing torque converter and has infinite gearing ratios and a fantastic “simulated” 6-speed steptronic mode, the I pressume the CVT is more “fitting” with the personaility of the car than a regular hydraulic slushbox, correct?”

Yeah, I'll concur with that. I think the CVT is a smart idea, and it eliminates the inefficiency of a torque converter. I haven't driven a CVT MINI, so I can't say for sure, of course. The only issue I have with it is longevity, considering the sort of driving I do.

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iDiaz Dec 10th, 2004 Link

I still don't like the idea of seeing more and more esses with those little rubber nubs still sticking out of their tires' shoulder blocks after thousands of miles, though. ;)

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Gabe Dec 10th, 2004 Link

Now that I think we can all agree on :)

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Gabe Dec 10th, 2004 Link

Frank – I really haven't heard anything about SMG on the R56. My hunch? Yes eventually. My guess is packaging would still be an issue. From my understanding the SMG is essentially an add-on component to a fairly standard manual transmission.

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jaz Dec 11th, 2004 Link

Posted by Gabe, “Actually BMW's SMG (and VW/Audi's DSG) has a fully automatic mode.”

Thanks Gabe. Yeah, this morning I remembered that I thought I had seen the BMW Z4 with the SMG and the dealer said it also had a fully automatic mode. For some reason I was thinking of the Toyota MR2 Spyder with SMG which doesn't have the fully auto mode.

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Gabe Dec 11th, 2004 Link

I've driven an SMG equipped Z4, 5 series and M3 in all modes including full automatic. None of them are near as refined as a true automatic however.

Interestingly one of the reasons BMW decided to not go with a DSG type of auto-manual (which is much smoother than SMG in auto-mode) in their new V10 7-speed M5 was that it made the car less sporty. The quote I read from the Roundel reportedly from an M engineer was “It's too much like an automatic.”

Which I think gives you a good indication of what some engineers within the M division think of automatics in very sporty cars. Not sure if they would consider the MCS in the same catagory but it's interesting to know nonetheless.

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jaz Dec 11th, 2004 Link

Interesting Gabe. I had heard BMW had some SMGs that performed better than others, and the M3 SMG was one of their best, while the regular 3 series SMG was not as good. Hopefully, they will keep improving on them — I'm sure they will. But, I would really like to see a high performance CVT-equipped MINI or BMW.

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The Boots Jan 9th, 2005 Link

Can anyone tell me if I can get the 05 MCS Steptronic Auto with JCW? It'd be awesome. fast gear shifts around bends with both handles still on the wheels. ;)

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Gabe Jan 9th, 2005 Link

No the current JCW kit is not available with the MCS auto. However JCW will be releasing another kit that will work.

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