BMW/MINI to Buy JCW?

Ian Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I have to suppose that many more JCW upgrades have been sold than MINI/BMW ever expected, triggering these discussions.

I hope nothing happens to the John Cooper Works Garage as far as classic Minis is concerned …

MiniMe Apr 25th, 2005 Link

This sounds great! A JCW”M” MINI.

Michael Burchill Apr 25th, 2005 Link

Hmmm… or it could be the reverse, Ian. Maybe the goal here is to sell more, and better compete with the very successful after-market world.

I would think more people would be ready to buy JCW parts/Mods if you could just spec them out from the factory at the time of order, instead of waiting for a dealer install after the car arrives on these shores.

Josh Wardell Apr 25th, 2005 Link

The real question is how much money it will save when it is rolled out as a separate model instead of a costly labor-intensive upgrade kit.

A side note Gabe, I clicked the link to this article from GoMotoring, and motoringfile gave me a page that said “OK the page has moved here” with a link to the front page, which did not contain the article. Was it temporarily removed or something? Just FYI.

Gabe Apr 25th, 2005 Link

Yes it was removed and reposted.

ajigel Apr 25th, 2005 Link

Any chance this will mean we’ll get three lines of MINIs? Cooper, Cooper S and Cooper M/JCW?

petsounds Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I would be surprised if this happens. BMW is already using Dinan to supply warranty-covered aftermarket parts for the MINI, and they have a longstanding relationship with Dinan. Why rock the boat? I don’t see the advantage for BMW to buy JCW outright. Indeed it would be nice to spec JCW parts at the factory, but I think they could develop a relationship that would allow this without actually require purchasing the company.

Brian Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I don’t think (and the article articulates it) that BMW would ever badge a MINI with the ‘M’ designation. BMW owners (especially the M folk) are as adamant about their cars as we are about our MINIs, and BMW would not want to upset the JCW fans either.

All this likely means is BMW acquiring the facility and name, and giving some more opportunities for those who wish to add some JCW flash to their cars to be able to do so. I wouldn’t expect a great number of changes. MINI has been a far more profitable enterprise than BMW had expected in their wildest dreams, and all this does is further enhance the bottom line.

I’d expect these changes to come to fruition with the next flavor of MINIs to come, allowing for even more variety of cars.

Gabe Apr 25th, 2005 Link

“BMW is already using Dinan to supply warranty-covered aftermarket parts for the MINI, and they have a longstanding relationship with Dinan.”

Actually neither MINI or BMW have any official relationship with Dinan. In fact MINI corporate sent out a memo to MINI service and parts departments last year specifically noting that Dinan products have the ability to invalidate portions of the warranty like all other after-market parts. Further Dinan parts are only warranted through Dinan and participating shops (some MINI dealers) and not through MINIUSA (or BMWUSA for that matter).

Not that I’m anti-Dinan, they have some quality products. I just want to make sure it’s clear to everyone what the real relationship (or lack-thereof) is.

petsounds Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I guess my dealership (Long Beach MINI) must be one of those, because late last year I talked with my Service Advisor about aftermarket stuff and she more or less said, “Why buy overpriced JCW parts when you can get Dinan parts for much less that perform just as well, and they’re fully covered by the warranty?” Now maybe Dinan is giving the dealership a kickback, but I have a lot of trust in this Service Advisor.

Kurt Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I, for one, would have been one of the people to buy a mini cooper JWC if it had been available when I was shopping…

Gabe Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I think the confusion is completely understandable. At times I’ve had the impression that they put forth the image that there is some relationship there that just doesn’t exsist.

I’ve had long talks with a a couple of parts managers and even some service advisors about this over the years. While Dinan does have a unique position in the market due to their relationship with many dealers (built over many years), they do not enjoy any more of a relationship with BMWUSA or MINIUSA than many other aftermarket companies.

While Dinan does by and large have quality products, they are not engineered and tested by BMW like the JCW parts are. They also do not have any BMW or MINI affiliation outside of specific dealers who are re-sellers.

Again I’m not trying to be anit-Dinan at all… just trying to clarify a bit.

michael Boice Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I personally would rather have BMW’s M division handle the ‘upgrade’ in-house. I find the install here rather disconnected…and my dealer wasn’t totally up on the 05 JCW version. So the car went in twice for the JCW install; once for the 04 portion and then again for the 05 portion.

Also, the JCW badge does not posses the cachet the M does; the M versions are significantly different from their bretheren. Whereas, the JCW is a mild engine tweak.

My best hope would be for an in-house design/development/install. I would hope to see a fairly significant hp increase along with suspension and brake upgrades - at the current JCW price. I can hope, can’t I?

JAG Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I totally agree that a factory install will give more peace of mind than the one at the dealer. That would be a pump in confidence for someone that is going to pay the extra $$$. Just leave the option like it is today of a doing it at the dealer and in parts.

mataku Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I definitely like the idea of factory JCW upgrade, but would like to keep the M off the MINI. I think BMW has made it clear that they do not want to cross the BMW and MINI name too much and I would rather have it that way.

I’m rather tired of people thinking that I bought the MINI because it’s a baby BMW or something of that sort. And while the M does invoke superior performance, I would love to have that in the MINI, but with the traditional JCW name.

RB Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I’m wondering if they [JCW] will allow the factory to install the gear change indicator kit (JCM166)? That would be very kool, if you want it you have to go to the John Cooper Works Garage.

Bit of a drive for me, chaps.

Ian Apr 25th, 2005 Link

I’ve heard you mention that thing before, Robert … what is it exactly?

jazmini Apr 25th, 2005 Link

This does make sense from a business point of view, as MINI/BMW can obtain a stable supply and eliminate any chance of uncertainty. Although, there’s not that much risk now.

RB Apr 25th, 2005 Link

Ian,

It tells you what gear you are in, you know like F1. What is kool about this one is it works with a manual trans.

Patrick K Apr 25th, 2005 Link

Hey Gabe,

Actually, a lot of Dinan’s parts ARE tested by BMW. They are rather notorious for re-marking BMW parts with the Dinan name and marking the price up 2-3 times. The 3.38 E36 3 seriesLSD, and their Stage 2 E36 M3 clutch are prime (current) examples. A big reason some Dinan stuff works so well is that they are really BMW parts, usually off other models.

The warranty stuff works great when Dinan or BMW agrees to pay for the work. The bad things happen when people get stuck in the void where both parties point fingers at one another.

That being said, my M does have a Dinan supercharger under the hood and the ‘05 MCS JCW.

I think adding JCW (hopefully at reduced prices) from the factory is a good thing. For the big money it cost to get the JCW kit on my ‘05, the M upgrade usually gives power, suspension, brake, and wheel/tire upgrades.

Erik Apr 25th, 2005 Link

Probably a good idea to have the works stuff fitted at the factory and have BMW completely oversee the development. I don’t have a complete works car but it would have been more attractive if it was slightly cheaper (as I suspect it would be if done at the factory). My guess is that since they haven’t increased the MINI dealer network much (if by any) that the dealers will have their hands full as the MINI fleet ages and the big service starts to trickle in.

dgszweda Apr 25th, 2005 Link

Gabe,

There is a relationship between BMW and Dinan. It may not be a corporate BMW warranty relationship, but many, many BMW/MINI dealerships sell Dinan parts and they warranty them in house, just as a factory installed part. Granted you can’t go to any BMW shop, only Dinan shops. But my Mini dealership has a few Dinan MCS’s on the showroom floor (no-JCW ones). Also, BMW gives Dinan early peaks at their products and some priviledged information. So I think it is a little incorrect to give a blanket statement that no relationship exists, because it truly does, just not quite on the same level as JCW and the M division.

With that said, I am fully confident that the JCW has been tested and developed with the same degree of refinement and testing as would have taken place in house. You stated that it would be cool to see M3’s and JCW’s on the Nurburing being tested, well it does take place now. And I have some photos on them someplace, but I have to look. I am pro-JCW and have a ton of JCW stuff on my car, but I would hate to see BMW buy them out. It is kind of neat having an outside tuning shop due this work. I think it would destroy the uniqueness. If they bring it in house, it becomes some kind of weird tuning “thing”. Not an M-series, not a BMW standard series, just a prepackaged JCW named kit that was bought from a Cooper who now longer controls it. I like the idea of having it done at the factory and saving money. I would also like to see some more parts, but I just don’t think bringing it in house solves anything, except to line BMW’s pockets.

Jeremy Applebaum Apr 25th, 2005 Link

Sign me up for the //MINI

Jeremy Applebaum Apr 25th, 2005 Link

Make that ///MINI

Gabe Apr 25th, 2005 Link

dgszweda - Let me clarify, from what I’ve heard from BMW and MINI folks, there’s no “official” relationship between BMW/MINI and Dinan. Certainly there are a number of dealers that have relationships in that they sell Dinan parts.

And yes I’ve seen those pics of MINIs at the Nurburgring. Here’s my favorite.

Zack Apr 26th, 2005 Link

Not to sound repetitive to other posts, this sounds like a great business opportunity for BMW. Aftermarket parts is a huge business, and MINI corporate surely thinks they can get a larger piece of the pie. Fact is, a BMW purchase of JCW could significantly reduce the time needed for and the price of a Works upgrade.

If BMW made this buy, there’s a good chance my next car would be 2008 MCS JCW with LSD (AWD would be nice, too).

2nd MINI Apr 26th, 2005 Link

The one thing that concerns me in this is that an ‘outsider’ perpective on improving the breed will be lost. While I understand that everything JCW was tested by BMW, I had understood the germ of the ideas for improvements came from the works guys, outside the house. Was I wrong?

Bob

Patrick Apr 26th, 2005 Link

There will NEVER be a ///M Mini for a couple of reasons. All ///M cars have to meet 3 requirements to get an ///M badge, they are:

1. all ///M cars must be RWD–mini is FWD

2. they have NA/high revving engine’s—MCS uses forced induction, this is a no-no for the ///M division

3. and of course they have to be manual (with the exception of the e36 M3)

#3 is no problem but #1 and #2 pretty much exclude the mini from being an ///M car…i would expect something similar to the performance package on 330’s or the competition performance package on e46 M3’s

patrick Apr 26th, 2005 Link

um why is that last paragraph so huge? thats weird

Elliot Apr 26th, 2005 Link

Those are certainly interesting thoughts about what precludes BMW from bestowing the ///M badge on a MINI…but certainly rules are made to be broken…..

Just because there hasn’t been a FWD or forced induction M-badged car in the past doesn’t mean there won’t be one in the future.

BMW didn’t make SUVs in the very recent past….the X3 and X5 changed all that.

Roundel suggests that BMW will shortly announce people-carriers to compete with the new R class vehicles from M-B.

I wouldn’t make predictions that BMW will hold true to the past for the application of the M badge to BMW products of the future.

David Apr 27th, 2005 Link

I really don’t think BMW would make an M MINI for the simple reason that there is already wide brand recognition for JCW when it comes to MINI. WHy would BMW want to fix something that ain’t broke?

Even if M technology finds its way into MINIs they would still be better off packaging it under the JCW name. MINI isn’t BMW, just like Lexus isn’t Toyota. Owned by the same people, marketed differently to different audiences.

Greg Apr 27th, 2005 Link

BMW’s M division in Germany is separate to the assembly plant. The cars bodies are made in the factory and then sent to the M division for further fit-out. Hence if you spec an M-technic body kit or other mods, the M-people do the job.
This must be similar to JCW people working with MINI at the plant. This makes sense.
Down our way, dealers fit the JCW kits, and the job can be done by any number of technicians - I don’t know of any specially appointed “JCW expert”. Which means you could get your gear fitted by some “untrained guy” reading the instructions as he goes. This may add to the bill and mistakes being made.
I would prefer my kit fitted by a guy who has done a few and can do it blindfolded, and considered and expert from JCW.
It is my understanding that the MINI Challenge Race series in Germany are having their cars worked on by BMW Motorsport division already.
I really can’t see JCW being phased out - this would contradict everything about MINI heritage so far…

Mike aka ChiliCooperS Apr 29th, 2005 Link

I hope this happens, but like Ian said I hope nothing happens to the garage. I think it will be neat maybe M will help in designing some aftermarket stuff for the MINI??!!

Awesome Idea

Mikey

chrisfb1 Apr 29th, 2005 Link

the funniest thing is that i put a ///Mini badge on my MCS two days before this thread came out, i thought it will be cool to see a ///M mini which beats M3 on the autox course sometime.

I guess i should have work for BMW! yeah right!

I think it is a good thing to have a ///Mini. they dont have to have it, but it will be nice to have it!
again, let’s leave it to them!

greg May 3rd, 2005 Link

Patrick, did I misunderstand your 4/25 posting stating that your MCS had a DINAN supercharger AND 2005 JCW?

greg May 3rd, 2005 Link

Hi Gabe. I am reading a print off the DINAN website for MCS mods that states “the S2 program delivers acceleration and handling that make the MINI driving experience the most exciting, without compromising drivability or warranty coverage.”. And there’s twelve pages of MINI performance mods. Check it out and give us your feelings.

Gabe May 3rd, 2005 Link

Thanks Greg - actually I’ve seen what Dinan has available for the MCS already. In fact I posted something about it probably close to two years ago.

greg May 4th, 2005 Link

Gabe. What did you think about the warranty claim?

Gabe May 7th, 2005 Link

As I mentioned previously, Dinan warranties their products through DInan authorized dealers - some of which are also MINI dealers. Remember that dealers are independant of MINIUSA.

Again, MINIUSA or BMWUSA look at Dinan as just another aftermarket parts company. This is something I’ve heard many times over the years, from quite a few dealer parts department managers and MINI corporate folks. If you have further questions on this I highly recommend calling MINI corporate and asking about this first hand.

jackorange Jun 3rd, 2005 Link

imagine a combination of BMW’s M technology with JCW’s… on a MINI….
OMG!!!

MGear Jun 14th, 2005 Link

BMW could simply reach a “licensing Agreement” with JCW that would allow BMW to develop, badge and sell JCW components on factory Mini’s. BMW wouldn’t have to purchase any phsysical plant from JCW and JCW could go on doing what they have always done. The agreement could go far enough to give JCW “approval rights” to what there name is going to be used on as well as desgin and engineering involvement. This would also provide JCW with a fabulous cash flow position taking in royalties from a broader product line that BMW is responsible for, not to mention the increase in sales would have an enormous impact on royalties to JCW. Go for it John Cooper Works, everyone is a winner with this scenario!

RC Jul 4th, 2006 Link

JCW own the ‘Cooper’ name. They allowed BMW to use it for the MINI. I think this is what BMW might be after.

I don’t think the article implies a ‘M’ version of the MINI. It just states that JCW would join the Motorsport division.

I hope Mike Cooper retains these rights, continues their R&D and allows BMW to put these parts in the MINI.

MINI is NOT a BMW!!!!!

MotoringFile » Archive » John Cooper Garage Closes Shop Jul 11th, 2006 Link

[...] John Cooper Garages, the shop and dealership owned by Mike Cooper that has become the spiritual home of all JCW products is reportedly closing it’s doors. It’s unclear how much this has to do with Mike Cooper selling the rights to the John Cooper Challenge (now called the MINI Challenge) or partnering with BMW to offer the JCW kit at the factory. It’s also interesting to read this in light of rumors we ran last year saying that BMW was considering buying JCW name. We know that BMW is developing the next JCW kit in house and with resources from within BMW and MINI rather than working with JCG. We also know that demand for the current, dealer installed JCW kit has fallen off dramatically since it became a factory option. It seems to make sense but we have yet to confirm any specifics. [...]

CHRISTIAN MEYER Nov 14th, 2006 Link

HEY!. WHY DON´T INVITE MINI MANIA (FROM USA) FOR THE AFTERMARKET PARTS? THEY SEEM TO BE AFFORDABLE AND THE
PRODUCTS FIRST RATE. I OWNN A 210 STAGE 2 KIT ON MY MCS AND IT GOES BALLISTIC…MAYBE MORE THAN THE 214 JCW. THEY ARE RELIABLE AND VERY PROFESSIONAL.. BUT MAYBE THEY DON´T SPEAK GERMAN!!

MotoringFile » Archive » BMW Acquires John Cooper Works Brand Dec 12th, 2006 Link

[...] As we reported way back in the spring of 2005, BMW has been working on bringing the JCW brand completely in house. As of today, that’s just what BMW has done.  According to a report on Forbes.com, BMW and MINI have aquired the rights to the John Cooper Works brand in a deal signed yesterday.  The move brings “JCW” one step closer to becoming the the MINI equivalent of BMW’s in-house ///M brand. [...]

DINAN 3 Aug 19th, 2007 Link

CORRECTION / Dinan Warranty

After more THOROUGH RESEARCH, I come to find that Dinan is permitted to perform the work at independent BMW dealerships as long as they warranty their work.

That appears to be the extent of the relationship at the national level.

Partnerships are formed by Dinan with each Dealership, which seems to be very beneficial for all parties involved, INCLUDING BMW CORPORATE.

Dinan does BMW cars exclusively.

As far as the Dinan badge, The dealership permits it, and BMW doesn’t seem to object to it.

But the Dealership / relationship with Dinan could change, as BMW may offer their own custom performance
parts.

It will be interesting to see what the dealers themselves will do.

Can BMW force the independent dealers to sell ONLY BMW Performance parts ?

Perhaps not the EXISTING ONES.

But I can guess that new dealerships may have to sell the BMW perfomance line as a part of business.

We’ll see.

As for me, I am happy with my Dinan upgrade.

Funny that no one at bmw told me this.

I thought the relationship was more involved at a national level.

Now I realize that it’s up to the individual dealerships to call the shots as far as Dinan Work goes.

You learn something new every day.

So to say there IS a definite relationship with BMW corporate, is not accurate at all. ( Sorry about that )

Still, Dinan is an excellent company with a great product.

I stand by Dinan and their superior performance products.

I’m proud to be a Dinan 3 owner.