BMW Enters Into Hybrid Alliance

Wraith Sep 14th, 2005 Link

Holy Unholy Alliance! BMW working with Mercedes-Benz parent company is strange enough, but then to throw GM into the mix? i can’t wait to see what kinda stuff they come up with. maybe something better looking than the Prius that is just as good on gas.

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Gabe Sep 14th, 2005 Link

i can’t wait to see what kinda stuff they come up with. maybe something better looking than the Prius that is just as good on gas.

Don’t expect anything more than new hybrid technology integrated into exsisting or soon to be released BMW (and possibly MINI) drivetrains. I wouldn’t expect entirely new cars based solely on this technology from BMW or MINI.

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matt Sep 14th, 2005 Link

is that english gabe?

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em Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I saw couple X3 based hybrid concept car on some Japanese web page…. I prefer to have my MCS with Toyota Highlander like hybrid system…. FF under normal ride (engine + motor), AWD under acceleration or slippy ride (+ rear motor). But the huge problem is its weight. It will spoil every joy my MCS currently has ;-(

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Frank Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I can’t believe BMW has fallen into the Hybrid balooney.

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Frank Sep 14th, 2005 Link

Interesting… BMW is killing the TRITEC engine (Co-produced with Daimler Chrysler) but they are now yet re-entering a new venture with their arch-rival??

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Zeke Sep 14th, 2005 Link

well-sorted hybrid diesel… mmmm….

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Bob Sep 14th, 2005 Link

So how long till these BMW/MINI hybrids hit the market?

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Tim Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I don’t know, Frank. I’d be willing to trust BMW on this one. Besides, due to the MINI’s approximate front/back weight distribution of 60/40, I’d be willing to guess that they could add some of the batteries in the rear of the car to even up the weight distribution. Also, if they could create even better fuel economy while maintaining the MINI’s handling characteristics, it’d be an even greater selling point in my opinion. Besides, the electric motor would provide some much appreciated torque to the car.

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Mark Smith Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I really don’t think you will see this technology in a MINI. It really doesn’t fit the MINI mold. I think hybrid technology is more beneficial to vehicles that burn more fuel like large sedans and SUV’s. Why would you put a Hybrid drivetrain in a car that already achieves the highest fuel economy in its class and is coming out with a newer generation of engines that is even more fuel efficient? it really doesn’t make sense and would be a waste of time and money.

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Mark Sep 14th, 2005 Link

As long as they don’t ugly the car up, I’m all for it. I just don’t understand why hybrids have to be ugly!

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Tim Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I don’t want to sound like a hybrid honk, but I think that the technology will only get better and I don’t understand why it seems to have so many detractors.

In terms of hybrids being ugly, Honda has a Civic and Accord hybrids that look identical to the regular versions. In addition, I believe that the Accord hybrid actually outperforms the standard Accord in 0-60 times!

I agree with your comments that the MINI already has good fuel economy. However, if it can be improved, why would you not consider it? If it can be improved and it doesn’t cost that much more money than a standard MINI, I’d be all over it. The issue of cost is a big one, but I believe that, like all new technology, the costs will fall over time. In addition, gas prices will probably continue to rise making hybrids more cost-effective.

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Mark Sep 14th, 2005 Link

Tim, you are correct the civic and the accord do look like the standard cars. It was a few of the others that did not look good.

As for the Mini getting good fuel economy. I saw something on the news the other day, it was not directed at the Mini, but they where saying that the EPA MPG on cars is grossly wrong! They test in perfect conditions un a dolly. Consumer reports tested a bunch of vehicles and most of them came in at about half of what the sticker said. I think one of the hybrids stated 52 mpg and consumer reports came up with 26 mpg. Kinda of scarey!

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dgszweda Sep 14th, 2005 Link

Gabe,

This shows that the plan to kill the Tritec venture was not because of Mercedes.

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Nathaniel Salzman Sep 14th, 2005 Link

Interesting… BMW is killing the TRITEC engine (Co-produced with Daimler Chrysler) but they are now yet re-entering a new venture with their arch-rival??

I’m with you, Frank. That was my initial reaction. The best answer I always got for the question of “why the heck trade in a motor with a bulletproof reputation for a Peugeot-produced, much more complicated engne?” was that it was to sever BMW’s joint venture with it’s “arch nemesis” Daimler Chrysler. And now here they are going to share hybrid tech systems along with D/C and GM? Whatever. I don’t really care who they develop their hybrid technology with, just what ultimately ends up in the MINI.

Truth be told, I’m more upset about the new motor going Turbo than anything – that and the on/off water pump which is asking for trouble IMO. VVT will be a nice addition since that technology is so proven now by Honda and Toyota (I don’t think Toyota even offers non VVT-i motors anymore). The supercharger just has soul, and that’ll be sad to lose. End of the day though, so long as the MINI’s quick and tight on the bendies, I too can learn to love turbo.

As for hybrid, if the performance and reliability is there, bring it on. The interesting aspect of this whole new emerging product market is that it is growing much more out of economic viability (rising price of gas) than out of tree-hugging love for mother earth. Let’s be realistic, recycling programs didn’t hit mainstream until people figured out how to make money off of it. It’s sad, as we should all be environmentally responsible, but let’s not fool ourselves that hybrid cars are born out of some deep-seeded love for the environment on the part of car companies. Toyota and Honda have figured out how to make money on it and now BMW, D/C, and GM want a piece of the action. It’s not synical, just realistic.

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Gabe Sep 14th, 2005 Link

The best answer I always got for the question of “why the heck trade in a motor with a bulletproof reputation for a Peugeot-produced, much more complicated engine?” was that it was to sever BMW’s joint venture with it’s “arch nemesis” Daimler Chrysler. And now here they are going to share hybrid tech systems along with D/C and GM?

Nathaniel, while that is certainly an big issue, the larger ones that I believe led to the new engine are technology and efficiency.

Technology: BMW is very keen to feature its technology across the range and into MINIs. Variable Valve Timing has been a part of BMWs engines as long as Honda’s (they introduced them within months of each-other I believe) and it’s a trademark technology that they like to use whenever possible. This is just one example of some of the highly advanced newer tech packed into the Prince engine range for the R56.

Efficiency: As much as some people in the US might look at the MINI as being fuel efficient, it is painfully behind the times when you consider what available outside the US. BMW is keen to have it’s entire fleet use highly efficient and technologically advanced engines. They simply can’t get that with the iron block Tritec.

That all said I have a great deal of respect for the lump under the hood of my MCS :-)

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Luke K Sep 14th, 2005 Link

“The supercharger just has soul, and that’ll be sad to lose. End of the day though, so long as the MINI’s quick and tight on the bendies, I too can learn to love turbo.”

Speaking of the love of a turbo, what the power potential for it? I read somewhere that a JCW turbo MINI would reach power outputs of 250 hp . . .?

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Nathaniel Salzman Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I’ve read 240hp on the JCW possibly for the new motor as well. That’d be sweet for sure. If you haven’t listened to Randy Webb on the whiteroofradio podcast talk about the possibilities of the new turbo powerplant and his perspectives on old vs. new, I really recommend it – very interesting stuff.

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Tim Sep 14th, 2005 Link

Luke: I wish. [I'll do my best Gabe impression here] Click the search button above and look for the next generation MINI revealed. :-) From what I’ve heard and read, the turbo will “only” produce about 220 hp in JCW form. I was a bit disappointed to hear that the S model is only going to produce around 170 hp. In my mind, you’ve got to impress the peeps with an upgrade in hp instead of a move sideways. A few car-guy friends of mine think getting rid of the supercharger in favor of a turbo engine will allow for much more tweakability. Apparantly, it’s much easier to increase the power output of a turbo engine rather than a supercharged one.

Back onto the topic of hybrids and MINIs, I agree with what Nathaniel said above. The only reason BMW is probably considering hybrids is due to the great success hybrids are achieving in the US. Consumers are the ones who are demanding these products and the car companies are latching on to exploit that market. Look at the Prius. It doesn’t get that much better fuel economy than a regular Civic, but it’s selling like crazy and Toyota is probably making a mint on it. People want to make an environmental statement even if the actual impact on the environment is minimal.

I guess the big question about hybrids and MINIs is regarding the MINI customer. Is the MINI customer one of these so-called “tree huggers” who would pay more to have a hybrid purely for the prestige factor? Or is the MINI customer a driving purist who thinks that any minor negative change to the driving characteristics of the MINI would make them not buy one? Tough call. Here’s what I want in a perfect world: A hybrid car that still drives very well; gets better gas mileage than the standard gasoline version; the extra costs associated with buying a hybrid could be recouped in 5 years or less, and finally, some sort of guarantee or warranty on replacement of the batteries. That’s all. Shouldn’t be too much of a problem :-).

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petsounds Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I’m disappointed to see them going towards hybrid technology, as they have been investing a lot of R&D into hydrogen technology. Without big companies backing hydrogen fuel, I’m afraid that it will die a quiet death and we’ll be stuck with half-assed hybrid tech for a long time to come.

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Jim Sep 14th, 2005 Link

How about a MINI hybrid that send the power to the rear wheels from the electric motor. From 30 mph and above the MINI would be regular front wheel drive. Below 30 mph the MINI would be all wheel drive. Great for traffic light launches and getting out of snow drifts.

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Michael Burchill Sep 14th, 2005 Link

Petsounds: I wouldn’t rule out the appearance of hydrogen yet. Thi allaince just seem to be a ‘think-tank’ type alliance, and doesn’t mean any R&D on Hydrogen will be flushed. In fact, you never know… it could excellerate the development of that technology.

What I don’t understand is what GM can contribute to this? They’ve spent virtually nothing on hybrid technology – or any alternative fuel vehicles for that matter – instead putting all their eggs in the ‘SUV profit basket’.

• • m

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Casey Swenson Sep 14th, 2005 Link

As far as hybrid cars being ugly – it is usually for a few reasons…one aerodynamics…the ugly covered up wheels to reduce drag etc is all ways they use to increase fuel mileage…the 2nd is cost…which ties into the first…they can’t afford to make it with a very low drag coefficient and keep it good looking…toyota for example already loses money on every hybrid they sell (or did a few years ago when a toyota rep was telling me about it)….but they are willing to take a small loss to gain the tax breaks and taxes that car companies get hit with based off the average fuel mileage on their range of vehicles.

I’m all for hybrid, alt fuels, etc…as long as the performance and fun factor don’t get sacrficed and I have more then enough faith in BMW that they wouldn’t do that…they would spend the money to get it right…just look how far over budget the MINI was compared to where they wanted it originally…but they didn’t sacrifice in many spots.

I think the mini concept car (countryman clubbie or whatever name mini is calling it this week) would be a perfect fit for some hybrid or alt fuel technology.

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Z4MINI Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I think people are missing a key point.

HYBRIDS CAN PERFORM

Ever wonder why a mile long coal train can pull out of a station so fast? It’s because it has electric motors on the wheel.

ELECTRIC MOTORS = INSTANT TORQUE.

Even a diesel locomotive only uses the diesel engine to power a generator which sends current to the wheels.

If it had to rely on a transmission to get that torque to the wheels it would take forever,…you’d need a hundred gears to get to a reasonable speed and decel again.

An automotive example of this is the new Accord hybrid which is actually faster than the regular version.

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cct1 Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I’m not sure how a hybrid is going to be a performance booster. The added weight is going to be a killer. Hybrid makes sense for economy, but I have a hard time believing it’s going to enhance performance.

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Shamus Sep 14th, 2005 Link

Michael, not that i’m a fan of GM or anything, but they spent millions on R&D and production of the now failed EV1 electric vehicle. It was another “odd looking” electric car but it was torquey and reasonably quick. I actually drove a silver one around in Florida a bit and they had a demonstrator at Disney’s Epcot center.

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Paul Sep 14th, 2005 Link

I think we are seeing a lot of FUD being passed around about hybrids.

Yes, it’s true that the EPA mileage test don’t accurately measure hybrid MPG very well. But reports like Consumer Reports can be just as inaccuate based on how they test the cars.

For example, to get maximum mileage in a hybrid, you can’t hit the pedal to the metal every time you start. You want to drive 55-65 mph instead of cruising at 70 or 80 mph. You want to minimize sudden braking and acceleration. Just following these practical steps allow most Prius owners to see average MPG in the high 40s to 50 mpg.

Sure, it’s not the 60 mpg EPA number, but it’s still very impressive. Just go to

http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/

where they’ve been compiling REAL WORLD mileage stats from real car owners, and you can see the Prius gets an average of 48 mpg.

There are enterprising individuals and companies that are even modifying their Prius cars to allow them to be plugged into a standard electrical outlet overnight. This keeps the batteries fully charged at the start of each day, so the gas engine kicks in much less frequently. The result? The same Prius gets more than 100 mpg.

One company even replaced the NiMH batteries with much more powerful Lithium Ion and was able to get 200 mpg with the Prius.

Yet, we already are starting to see FUD about how hybrids are just smoke and mirrors.

But just like regular cars, the actual performance of the hybrid depends on how it is implemented. One thing is for sure, hybrids do provide real world benefits.

1) Better gas mileage – sometimes slightly better, sometimes substantially better than an all-gas implementation.

2) Much lower smog-causing emissions that allows most hybrids to be classified as super ultra-low emissions vehicles.

3) Instant torque

I think it’s great that car companies are finally taking real efforts to really extract the advantages of hybrid technologies. The whole “hydrogen car” initiatives are just a PR-driven diversion, because companies know a practical hydrogen car is 20-30 years away, giving them an excuse to do nothing in terms of real products today. Except Toyota came up with a practical hybrid.

The 48 real-world mpg that the Prius gets is just the beginning. Who would complain about a 200 hp Mini that can get 100 mpg? With the appropriate amount of R&D, such a thing may be quite possible in 10 years. I for one am looking forward to the future.

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blalor Sep 15th, 2005 Link

For example, to get maximum mileage in a hybrid, you can’t hit the pedal to the metal every time you start. You want to drive 55-65 mph instead of cruising at 70 or 80 mph. You want to minimize sudden braking and acceleration. Just following these practical steps allow most Prius owners to see average MPG in the high 40s to 50 mpg.

And then there’s the guy who got a real-world 34.2 MPG from an MC while commuting, using similar petrol-conserving measures… :-)

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Paul Sep 15th, 2005 Link

And then there’s the guy who got a real-world 34.2 MPG from an MC while commuting, using similar petrol-conserving measures… :-)

It’s a good point. These techniques will work for non-hybrid cars, too, but my point is that the effect is more pronounced in hybrids.

And I love Mini, even though I don’t own one yet. Heck, I even convinced a friend to buy a Mini last year and got her totally sold on the whole culture and Minii vibe (she was driving a VW Passat).

But I’m 90% sure a Mini will be my next car. Specifically, a Mini Cooper S. But one thing that’s holding me back is that my 1996 Acura Integra LS 5-speed manual gets an amazing 34-37 mpg. On long roadtrips, I can hit 39 mpg if I stay at 60 mph.

The Integra is bigger and heavier than the Mini (although ironically, the Mini is much more roomy in the front) and has slightly less than 140 hp. Yet, the regular Mini with its 115 hp engine gets worse gas mileage than my bigger, older car with the bigger engine.

So, can BMW do better in terms of gas mileage while simultaneously increasing performance? Looking at my 9-year-old Integra, I believe it can do a lot better.

There’s a lot of engineering ingenuity that’s remained untapped because the business execs who run the car companies have long declared “25 mpg is good enough.” But based on this new initiative, I’m really looking forward to see what a Mini will be like when all the talent and creative of engineers aren’t held back by artificial business restrictions. Even better performance and economy. What could be better? :-)

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Barry / 10 Ball Sep 18th, 2005 Link

It all sounds great, but in the mean time, why doesn’t Mini import the diesel into the US. The fuel sulphur content issue could easily be resolved if Mini/BMW wanted it to happen. Who would opt for a Mini-D over a Golf-TDI…? -B

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