Are Small Cars in the US the Next Big Thing?

jarrett Sep 27th, 2005 Link

no surprise! the average consumer can afford $40 fillup but when you suv starts costing $80-$100 to fill up, the cost starts hitting expenditures for other things. there goes the cable, meals out etc. the ripple effect willbe staggering.

i am constantly asked how much to fill up my mini , how often, and what mileage i get.

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db Sep 27th, 2005 Link

Nothing funnier than seeing a bright yellow H3 parked next to a MINI I have to say.

Along these lines, I have been selling more MINI’s than normal lately too. People are again showing interest.

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Edge Sep 27th, 2005 Link

Thank God – the death of the SUV in America (as we’ve known it anyway).

It’s a shame that it takes a hit in the pocketbook for people to think “efficient is smart”.

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Greg W Sep 27th, 2005 Link

This is my only beef about MINI – the fuel consumption. I drive a MINI Cooper CVT on a daily commute basis in heavy stop/start traffic. The average fuel consumption showing on my gauge is 10.5 litres per 100 kms. This figure is comparable with a BMW 3 series. Alas, there are more fuel efficient cars arond that are bigger in body size and engine.

Glug GW

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ChrisW Sep 27th, 2005 Link

Choke on your Hummers and Escalades, yuppie scum! (Harsh? Sure. Justified? Sure.)

Sad that good old-fashioned common sense is only awakened in this country by a hefty hit to the wallet.

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mooper Sep 27th, 2005 Link

Real world fuel consumption for ‘05 MCS

20 mpg in the city 27 mpg on the highway

The fuel consumption is my biggest complaint about the MINI. People ask me all time about the mpg I get and are always disapointed when I answer honestly. One can only hope that the ‘07 engine does much better.

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Gabe Sep 27th, 2005 Link

Real world fuel consumption for ‘05 MCS

20 mpg in the city 27 mpg on the highway

And there in lies the biggest issue I have with the current low-tech tritec engine. The new BMW designed turbo will go a long way in fixing this.

That said I do see better MPG than what is mentioned above. I’ve been doing 100% city driving (2 miles a day) for weeks and am still seeing over 24mpg.

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Ian Sep 27th, 2005 Link

Fuel consumption on the MINI is very dependant on driving style; I recently got 33mpg by driving bored (and yes, the OBC figure is backed up by actual calculation)

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Blake Sep 27th, 2005 Link

Greg: I dont know why you get the figures you do. Volker (sp?) from NAM has reported an average 7.5-8 liters/100km with his S with the MTH mod done to it… It might just be driving style…

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darkmcs Sep 27th, 2005 Link

My MCS with MTH Tuner and 15% pulley has a “good” fuel economy. With a full tank to reserve, I get around 420km (mixed city and highway) and my OBC still reads 70-80 km left on the tank.

I do a 140km highway drive twice a week, and always got around 7.8 – 8.3L/100km. I use my cruise control, set at 120km/h. Last year, on a 2500km trip, I got almost 650km out of 3 tanks on highway driving. I didn’t have the OBC at that time, so no L/100km figures…

I think MINI are good on fuel, as long as the driver’s right foot is gentle on the throttle! lol

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fishey72 Sep 27th, 2005 Link

Die Stupid Useless Vehicle (SUV), The idea of driving vehicles bigger than my living room is ridiculous.

People always ask me: A: What kind of gas mileage it gets? Depends on how fast I am driving. B: What do you do when you need to haul something? I rent a truck, pay to have it delivered, or pay to borrow a friends truck(or at least bring a case of beer).

The fact that the US is driving a fleet of vehicles with a worse average fuel economy than we had 25 years ago is pathetic.

Someday ours MINI’s real mission will be accomplished: Taking over the world!

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Matt Sep 27th, 2005 Link

What is with all of you hate-filled people? Live and let live! Or grow up. There is a time and place for an SUV. I have both a MINI and a Landcruiser – try fitting six people and their bikes in a MINI!

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Gabe Sep 27th, 2005 Link

The fact that the US is driving a fleet of vehicles with a worse average fuel economy than we had 25 years ago is pathetic.

Amen brother. You know what the Ford Model T got for gas mileage in 1925? 25MPG. You know what the Ford F150 gets (most popular US vehicle in 2005)? 16MPG!

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Frank Sep 27th, 2005 Link

The Model-T also had a 4 cylinder motor producing 20 horsepower for a top speed of 45 mph. A lot of lawnmowers produce more power.

Is this a MINI enthusiast site, or a site to bash everyone who chooses something else?

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blalor Sep 27th, 2005 Link

… with the vast majority of people driving Cobalt-sized cars

Maximum Bob said that?! Woah. (Yeah, I’ve been reading too much Jalopnik and TTAC…)

Hey, if everyone starts driving MINIs, maybe there’s something to thank Dubya about, afterall! ;-)

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blalor Sep 27th, 2005 Link

20 mpg in the city 27 mpg on the highway

I get about 20 in the city, but then I also “treate every red light as a chance to start over”. I did the holy-crap-three-bucks-a-gallon pucker for a few days post Katrina and got pretty good mileage, but along with a serious reduction in smileage. Eh, not worth it.

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kaelaria Sep 27th, 2005 Link

SUVs and many of their drivers SUCK, PERIOD! The world was a much better place BEFORE them and somehow even survived (GM/Ford would probably argue that fact)! I actually hope gas goes above 4 and stays there so the rotten to the core American auto industry is forever shattered, and is either forced to shut down or completely change. No more $100k union laborers with full pentions and health for life. No more unrestricted milage requirements for the majority of the lineup (trucks). No more average mileage at less than 1/2 the rest of the world. THAT is the only way to drive down demand, and then drive down prices PERMANENTLY. So long as American drivers love the gazzlers, the rest of us will have to endure the high prices AND the annoying rolling walls on the roads, just so the 5′2″ mom’s of the country can feel safer and all big n’ tough.

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GMINI Sep 27th, 2005 Link

ditto, blalor.

in defence of the prevalent view of suvs posted here, suvs are misused every day. owning an suv is hardly evil. driving one to and from work every day all by your lonesome can understably be viewed as wasteful and glutonous. That practice is performed umpteen times every day. And then there are those owners who have an SUV just for those days they need to take the kids desert kite surfing.

My real question of the day is: how much am i be able to buy a secondhand Hummer for, post Katrina?

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blalor Sep 27th, 2005 Link

SUVs definitely have a place. I drove Jeep Cherokees for years before upgrading to an F-150, from which I upgraded to the MINI. As much as I love the MINI, it’s forte is not hauling three dogs to the muddy dog park or making runs to Lowes and Home Depot. We’ve got a Santa Fe that fits those needs, but if MINI ever offers a hardtop in that nifty burnt orange color for my wife, we’ll be looking for cheap, used Jeeps once again! :-)

The SUV-bashing is over the top, and not just in this post. The beautiful thing about America is that we’re free to drive what we want, when we want, where we want. If you don’t like it, lump it. I think that everyone (myself included) associate SUVs with clueless idiots who endanger others with their bad habits. What do you think when you hear “soccer mom”? I immediately envision a single kid in the back seat of a Suburban, sitting about a block away from a distracted woman yammering on a cell phone and apply makeup, whilst terrorizing everyone who gets sucked up in her multitudinous blind spots (which she doesn’t check). The vehicles themselves aren’t to blame, but the drivers sure as shootin’ are!

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MINI VANILLI Sep 27th, 2005 Link

well i have a 2005 cooper with 25000 miles and i am getting 35.6 miles per gallon average for the last 5000 miles. 80% highway. not bad at all. i was going to get an MCS but im really loving the gas mileage im getting. and when the 2007s come out i hope i can get even better MPG when i get another cooper.

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Franklyn Sep 27th, 2005 Link

I think every car has its place of use. It’s just that it’s harder to justify driving an SUV for as many situations as a regular car, since most situations is just simple transportation.

The worst argument I’ve ever heard of for driving an SUV is ‘If I’m in an accident, I want to win’, and I’ve seen that mentality in a lot of people which drives me up the wall.

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Cruzin Chris Sep 27th, 2005 Link

I showed my MINI at a carshow last weekend and I had no less than a dozen people come up and ask me what kind of gas mileage I get.

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Amit Sep 27th, 2005 Link

Just drove back from NYC to Montreal last night. Filled up just after the Lincoln Tunnel and drove straight home with no stops. Pouring rain the entire way and through upstate NY mountains. Pulled into the gas station near my place with 372 miles on the trip odo. Filled up approx. 13 gallons which averaged out to 28.6 mpg. I have an ‘05 w/15% pulley, Alta Intake, Invidia Exhaust, & MTH. Not bad at all. I never got more than 340 miles out of a tank on my old ‘02

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Brendan Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I right now own a 05 Audi S4 because I’m addicted to speed. But I have to admit after spending $350 last month for gas the audi isn’t looking so attractive anymore. I get about 15mpg mixed highway/city driving. My daily drive consists of about 80% freeway driving. I figure if I got a mini cooper S I could probably pull at least 24mpg. That’s a huge difference.

What else people don’t mention here is the cost of ownership of and SUV and in my case an S4. If I bought an mcs even if the gas mileage is not the best around for a four banger at least I still get a great handling fun to drive car. Also the mcs is pretty damn fast for the price. I would be saving like 400-500 a month with the MCS. So i’ve been thinking about getting one lately. Also the resale value for the mini is still going strong.

If you have a need for an SUV and you can afford it, it’s a great car to have. I think there is nothing wrong with the cars alone. I do however have problems with the drivers.

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bealzabubba Sep 28th, 2005 Link

First, I’m somewhat disapointed in the milage I get on my 03 JCW – over 11k miles, I average exactly 25.06 mpg, in a mix of stop and go and freeway (here in L.A., you frequently have stop and go on the freeway, but that’s another issue.) Seems to be around 34 mpg on cruise (75mph) and around 18 mpg in city, with a heavy foot.

That’s disapointing, as my chipped Passat (1.8t) averages 28.9 with the same HP, slush box, and a good 800 lbs of added weight, over the same drive conditions.

My point is that it isn’t so much size, but efficiency that matters, at least to me.

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KevinR Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I get 21 city, 29 highway with a total average of 26 mpg. Not exactly the super efficiency most people expect from a car of this size.

For those who are so proud of driving a MINI instead of an SUV: if fuel mileage is so important, why aren’t you driving a VW TDI vehicle or a Toyota Prius?

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JeffT Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I’ll go a step further than KevinR and suggest we lose the ugly, holier-than-thou, politically-correct, snotty stereotyping of others and just enjoy our MINIs. When excessive smugness creeps over us, let’s keep in mind we too are wasting gas driving our beloved MINIs. Try to give others the benefit of doubt about why they have or need an SUV. I’m sure most of them would strongly prefer to drive a MINI as we do, but there aren’t enough to go around. MINIs also aren’t especially cheap, the dealers are few and far between, and the build quality (according to discussions here) doesn’t yet approach that of most Japanese manufacturers. And admit it – owning a MINI wouldn’t be as fun if they were as common as a Toyota.

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dgszweda Sep 28th, 2005 Link

That looks like Global Mini in Atlanta. When I was there last, a guy drove up in his Rolls Royce Silver Spur and was looking to test drive a Mini.

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jdmarino Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I don’t want everyone to own a MINI: I want to be a little different.

bealzabubba: I, too, have a Passat and get similar mileage. But I think if I drive my MCS the same way my Passat’s auto transmission shifts, i.e. mostly gentle, upshifting at 2300 rpm, rarely downshifting, I think the MCS would do as good.

I understand the need for a large vehicle: We moved up to a minivan with the advent of 3 kids. You just can’t fit 3 car/booster seats side-by-side on one bench seat. You need a 3rd row. We gave up our much-loved Volvo V70 to get the extra row. But we have every intention of going back to a wagon once our need abates.

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mcswrks Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I think the launch of the new mini in general is just perfect. Time to bring it back anyway with the new millenium, along with a fuel crisis- just like the original was created.

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Long Run Nick Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Thanks Jeff T

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Paul Bianco Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I am so happy to start seeing the fall of the SUV and the rise in smaller/more efficent cars, whether it is more MINI’s or whatever else. I must say though, that I am happy with my MPG in my ‘05 MCS (with just shy of 19K). Im getting constantly 30+ MPG (mostly highway with some stop-and-goes due to highway backups). The recommendation of premium fuel kinda sucks, it’s one setback to have a quick and nimble car that gets acceptable MPGs.

Down with the SUV’s! Finally! And hopefully now people will leave me alone about “how small” my MINI is, since they will prolly be driving them soon enough :)

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Matt Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I get 7 mpg on average at the track or less than 100 miles to a tank refill that now can cost $40, for my cooper s jcw…. but can get over 30 mpg on the highway… and about 20 mpg in start and stop boston traffic (which is great considering my average speed is about 6 mph on my commute)…..

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Nicholas P Sep 28th, 2005 Link

i took my S on a course through the Mountains in North GA a few months back and got 30mpg while having the time of my life

not many cars that can handle even nearly as good as the MINI that can do that

i don’t think any of the handful of cars that handle better in tight turns get that gas mileage

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nervous Sep 28th, 2005 Link

If we are going to be honest, let’s be really honest – most SUVers drive them as a “cool” minivan. It is nothing but vanity that keep them out of minivans & wagons for their “hauling” needs. And, yes, I politically cower to the belief that people have a right to be vain – I just think that it is sad.

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SuperCharged Sep 28th, 2005 Link

GMINI hit the nail on the head earlier. SUVs do have their use and owning one isn’t a bad thing, but the idea of one person driving in SUV all alone is a big waste. I also think that SUVs should use diesel engines instead of petrol engines. Diesel engines provide the torque that is necessary to pull such a heavy vehical around, and it’s much more efficient (assuming the manufacturer makes at least a half decent diesel engine.)

The MCS’s fuel consumption is very dependant on the driver’s driving style. If you drive it well and you know how to keep your foot as light as possible while still maintaining your speed the engine will yield good results. On the other hand, the car is very unforgiving if someone drives with a lead foot. Keep in mind that even though the MINI is a small car, I don’t think it was really intended to follow in the footsteps of the original, which was designed to be economical.

SuperCharged

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Kirk Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Is the MINI right for me? Take this little test. For each item, decide the extent to which you agree with:

1. I am childless and have no interest in letting anyone, no matter how small, interrupt my own extended childhood.
2. I have no large pets. No real dogs, no horses, no responsibilities for any beings other than myself.
3. My family is either dead, lives far away, or knows better than to ask for my help anyway (as if I’d give it – see 1. above!).
4. I have few friends who’d want to ride in a car with me.
5. I live in an urban area, within 50 miles of a MINI dealer.
6. Though I live in an urban area, public transportation just isn’t convenient for me; I like to drive fast to my eco-terrorist meetings.
7. I spend more time in Starbucks than I do outdoors.
8. I live in a condo or apartment. If I were to have a house, I’d hire out the real work of maintaining, fixing or improving it. Then I’d complain about how much contractors charge.
9. I can easily afford $20-$35K for a new or used car. Or at least my parents can.
10. I alone should be able to dictate what others drive. If I don’t like it, it should be banned. I have a bit of a Napoleon complex.

If most of these seem to fit your way of thinking (or you already have an SUV), MINI is right for you!

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Kirk Sep 28th, 2005 Link

1. Cars should be available ONLY in shades of gray. Or red.

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Frank Sep 28th, 2005 Link

‘05 MCS 6MT 100% stock, 5K miles. I am getting 26MPG in the city and 32-34MPG in the highway. I drive it with a light foot and being getting fairly good fuel economy. I drive 40 miles roundtrip everyday and the gas tank lasts me about a week and a half.

My wife’s ‘02 Cooper CVT yields even better fuel economy.. 28-31MPG in the city and 40MPG int he highway! Her car has nearly 33K miles.

The MCS is a car geared for performance above fuel economy. Sorry for those of you dissapointed in the fuel mielage of your MCS. If it was sold to you as a 50MPG fuel miser, you were mislead, period. Some of you have heavy foots, shift at 5K-6K RPM, mod the engine to churn out more power and still expect to get 40MPG. That is stupid. You give up something to get something.

If your needs/wants are centered around the best fuel economy possible, the the 115HP Cooper model will be right up your alley.

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edward n. Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Interesting Kirk. I didn’t see a smiley, so I take it you are not appreciative of the SUV bashing. There are legitmate needs for such a vehicle as described elsewhere. However, currently, SUV ownership is typically seen as a status symbol. A person who purchases an escalade or h2 to carry a cellphone will be able to answer your questionaire postively as well.

The sword swings both ways.

In europe, MPVs (multipurpose vehicle), aka smallish minivans, are popular for families with large hauling needs.

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blalor Sep 28th, 2005 Link

but the idea of one person driving in SUV all alone is a big waste.

By that argument, so’s the MINI. There’s three wasted seats and a whole lotta wasted horsepower and metal to cart only one person around. By that argument, if you still insist on having powered transportation, you should be driving a Smart car (you can use the other seat for your briefcase) or a single-seat scooter. :-)

If only my employer offered sheltered stalls and hay so I could ride my horse to work. sigh

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Gabe Sep 28th, 2005 Link

but the idea of one person driving in SUV all alone is a big waste.

By that argument, so’s the MINI. There’s three wasted seats and a whole lotta wasted horsepower and metal to cart only one person around. By that argument, if you still insist on having powered transportation, you should be driving a Smart car (you can use the other seat for your briefcase) or a single-seat scooter. :-)

If only my employer offered sheltered stalls and hay so I could ride my horse to work. sigh

I agree that that’s not an ideal argument. Let’s take a look at three obvious (and rather simple) arguments against something like an SUV:

a) Most SUVs are drastically more dangerous to other vehicles and pedestrians than cars due to poor vehicle dynamics, extra mass, and tall height. (ie – let’s limit our ability to accidently kill people)

b) SUVs are inherently inefficient vehicles due to extra mass, complex AWD/4×4 systems, and the subsequently larger engines needed to power such a vehicle. (ie – let’s not deplete our earth’s natural resources faster than we already are)

c) SUVs clog US congested road-ways cities with tall-wide vehicles that create havoc for other traffic. (ie – let’s be good stewards of humanity and simply try to be mindful of other around us as we drive)

Based on these issues I see no reason why 95% of people who own SUVs shouldn’t be buying wagons or Minivans instead.

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Kirk Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Yes, we all waste a lot. Just keep in mind that not everyone can, for one reason or another, have multiple vehicles. And the MINI isn’t the perfect fit for everyone. Like most people on this forum, I’m thrilled to have a MINI. But I try not to demonize others for whom it doesn’t fit, especially if I don’t know their circumstances. Nor would I hope to impose my preferences (color, auto vs. manual, blink vs. no bling, etc.) on others. I’m just constantly surprised by the number of people on this forum who can only acknowledge their own needs and preferences.

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ChrisW Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Try to give others the benefit of doubt about why they have or need an SUV. I’m sure most of them would strongly prefer to drive a MINI as we do, but there aren’t enough to go around.

First off, if people preferred to drive smaller cars, most of them would drive smaller cars. As Nervous said, let’s be honest here: the recent (and far too persistent) SUV fad has nothing to do with “need.”

For those of you who are put off by our antagonistic comments toward SUVs, consider my point of view. I grew up with SUVs, before SUVs were “cool.” My family (father) had a couple of Land Cruisers, and a 4Runner. I had two brothers, we lived in a snow zone (Utah), and we actually spent a lot of time off-road doing outdoor things (camping, fishing, hunting, pulling a trailer, etc.). You know, the things SUVs were originally designed for. In those days I didn’t think twice about someone’s decision to drive an SUV (though even way back then I thought Chevy Suburbans to be silly and excessive…).

Then along came the 90s, the birth of the Expedition/Excursion/H2/Escalade/etc. scourge. Did we suddenly “need” such large vehicles? Some folks, perhaps (very few I’d argue). But I lived in Orange County, CA during the explosion of the big-SUV trend, and suddenly every other poseur on my block was driving a black or white Tahoe or Yukon with tinted windows, a billet grille, and big chrome wheels (nothing like a little originality eh?). My “benefit of a doubt” faded quickly. Were these vehicles needed for towing and off-roading, or traction on snow-covered roads? Hardly. Lots of passengers to haul? Not even close. Heavy loads to carry? I suppose if you consider a few bags from Nordstrom a heavy load…

Now normally I would say “to each his own, he’s/she’s the one paying for the gas.” But suddenly you start to see these elevated headlights right outside your rear window every time you look in the mirror. And not only do you have one of these beasts riding your tail at any given moment, but there’s one in front of you so you can’t see what’s going on up ahead either. And to make matters worse, you notice both drivers, front and rear, are talking on cell phones and putting on make-up. Suddenly “freedom of choice” becomes a lumbering 3-ton threat to your safety and well-being, and the safety and well-being of the two tykes strapped into carseats behind you. Which results in some hefty resentment and agitation.

My wife drives a Pilot; I hate putting gas in it, but it’s good in the snow and good for hauling things and kids and their friends. If Honda would put AWD in the Odyssey I’d buy one of those. And if I owned a boat or an RV, I’d probably have something capable of pulling a heavy load. Ultimately, if I could afford one, I’d probably have an Audi All-Road. And if I didn’t have kids at all, I’d probably own two MINIs.

But I reserve the right to resent any urban hipster doofus or silicone country-club queen who pimps around in an Escalade or Yukon XL with chrome spinners just because it’s “cool,” all the while causing me to steer wide for the sake of my safety and sanity. I can enjoy some bittersweet satisfaction at the current upward spiral of fuel costs (a price worth paying, in some ways I suppose). And U.S. automakers deserve to choke on the poison pill they created by focusing on these pretentious road pigs and ignoring all else for so long.

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minimc Sep 28th, 2005 Link

The SUV-bashing is over the top, and not just in this post. The beautiful thing about America is that we’re free to drive what we want, when we want, where we want. If you don’t like it, lump it.

This comment is offensive.

Like it or not you’re a citizen of the world. What you do (eg poluting) effects others.

This is an example of an unfortunate American stereotype that others around the globe (and here at home) detest. Plain old BAD attitude.

With specific reference to the “lump it” Why’s that…? cuz “we got the bombs”?

I hope the trend away from big, dangerous, inefficient and irresponsible modes of transports continues.

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peter Sep 28th, 2005 Link

The fact that SUVs have been popular in recent years goes beyond the economics of gas prices. It also has something to do with this country’s complicated and idiosyncratic taxation laws, specifically the section that allowed ‘business owners’ to deduct a large portion, if not the entire cost, of the purchase of a heavy SUV (prior to last fall, up to $100,000 for a 6000 pound gross-weight vehicle). So driving that Cayenne Turbo, Range Rover, or even a couple of Hummer H2s made FINANCIAL sense for people who could claim they used such vehicle for ‘business’ purposes, even if it means shuttling a briefcase of papers instead of a bale of hay. Their tax deduction substantially pays for the lease and gas, regardless of how much gas costs or how much gas it guzzles! The manufacturers of such vehicles are not unmindful of this when they market to Americans.

So long as such ‘incentives’ and indirect subsidization of the large SUV remain, people will continue to justify driving such vehicles.

Fortunately, this may all begin to change. Besides the higher cost of gas and the increasing negative sentiment towards large SUVs, the tax ‘incentive’ was significantly revised late last year, reducing the amount one can deduct immediately.

In the end, it will take more than just incremental rising energy costs to change the buying behavior of those who drive large SUVs.

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blalor Sep 28th, 2005 Link

With specific reference to the “lump it” Why’s that…? cuz “we got the bombs”?

Because in America, we’re blessed with freedoms of choice and speech. You don’t like what I do or say? Unless it’s illegal, tough. That’s why I say “lump it”.

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Frank Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Read this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/13/AR2005091302063.html

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Kirk Sep 28th, 2005 Link

SUVs offend you, do they? The idea of someone making their own choice offends you? Sounds like that narcissism issue I was referring to earlier. I can buy rational arguments like Gabe’s against SUV’s and why they aren’t a good choice for most, but the fact that you’re offended is a poor argument for anything.

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MattP Sep 28th, 2005 Link

To summarize:

1. We pretty much all love MINIs
2. Most people don’t need an SUV. Neither do most “need” a MINI.
3. Some here hate SUVs and the people who drive them, and would like both to be regulated or outlawed by the govt.
4. Others here believe SUVs to be an occasionally necessary evil protected by the American ideas of liberty and freedom of choice.

But have we learned anything new?

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Gabe Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Matt – If that’s all you got from this discussion I think you’re missing the point that Chris (and to some degree I am) trying to make.

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Ken Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I own both an X3 SAV (BMW marketing lingo) and a MINI. My wife drives the SAV a short distance each day in Chicago and I drive 23 miles a day to work in the MINI. We fill both with different types of hauling duties a dog and baby, plants weekly/monthly food stocks and so on. I have also loaded items on top of the X3 on occasion.

When we drive long distance we consider which vehicle fits the trip best and that’s what we drive. Sometimes the MINI saves us gas and sometimes the X3 is more able to fit all the stuff or people we will be taking. It’s about responsible choices no matter what you drive.

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Nathaniel Salzman Sep 28th, 2005 Link

When the original Hummer gained such instant west coast popularity, Dennis Miller commented in his rant Style vs. Substance “…a hum-vee being driven through the jungles of Borneo is a tool. A hum-vee squeezing into a parking place on Rodeo Dr. is being driven by a tool.”

In this post, the SUV debate has turned into a sensative subject but ultimately what we’ve got here is a clash between two groups of drivers with different values, different needs, and different perspectives. I second the call-out on the pretentious vanity of so many SUV drivers who relish the supposed regality of their blinged-out pimpUVs. But likewise, I can appreciate the desire to drive something a bit more interesting than a minivan. And furthermore I see the true utilitarian purpose SUVs were originally designed for.

I can remember the days when Pathfinders, 4Runners, and Cherokees were vehicles of desire purely for their utilitarian nature – a vehicle you could drive anywhere. When the more Luxury Utility Vehicles started to crop up, my objection was one of vanity and I think the recognition of that excess is at the core of why MINI owners especially take such harsh issue with the kinds of SUVs and LUVs seen so frequently on the roads today. And futhermore with the irresponsible manner in which many are driven. The problem is one of indulgence – in size, power and the $50,000+ shelled out for the privilege.

MINI drivers, to an extent, are equally guilty of indulging themselves in the style and performance of our cars. The ability to zip through traffic and carve a windy road in style is its own decadence.

However, these are very separate vices, unequal in their severity.

My choice to blaze a $25,000 MCS down a windy mountain road has has fewer far-reaching repercussions than someone who spends $50,000 to inch their lone self and their 3-ton Escalade down an L.A. freeway at 5 mph, or worse drives with no responsible appreciation for the size of their vehicle or the reprocussions of its getting out of control.

We have a responsibility, all of us, to thoughtful driving, or thoughtful motoring. Fuel prices and other factors have lead to auto manufacturers being more mindful of effeciency, and that’s good for everyone – good for the economy, good for the planet, and good for the soul (ok, maybe that’s a stretch).

SUVs have their place, but I’m much more a fan of vehicles like the Xterra (in concept anyway) and Wranglers that are truly utility vehicles. Vehicles that you can drive through a car wash with the top off or the windows down – now that’s utility. If I would have to worry about my leather seats every time I went muddin’, that’d sort of defeat the purpose don’t you think?

To each their own. There are plenty of responsible people out there with legitimate need for larger vehicles with the power to tow boats and haul people. Please know, most of today’s criticism isn’t for you. Enjoy yourselves, and my condolences on how it’s getting expensive for you to use your vehicles.

All I need to haul is me, so the MINI will do just fine.

“…of course that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.”

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ChrisW Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Peter, good point about the ridiculous tax break bonus – I had forgotten about that.

And to MattP, I wholeheartedly agree with your point “SUVs to be an occasionally necessary evil protected by the American ideas of liberty and freedom of choice.” After all, my wife drives one (a somewhat sensible one, I hope). But with that belief I would also hope that people would take that liberty and freedom and exercise a little common sense for the rest of us. This is a civilized society, after all.

I agree that the government shouldn’t tell me what I can and can’t buy, but I don’t expect them to subsidize large, inherently dangerous vehicles either, yet they do (as Peter pointed out). And why is it I can’t buy a lot of European autos because they don’t meet U.S. “safety requirements,” yet I can buy something with a bumper that will overcut every car bumper on the road, not to mention the side-impact beams in the doors? Something just smells funny here.

I miss the days when wealth and status were demonstrated with German supercars, not shoddy domestic behemoths slathered in chrome. Rub your affluence in my face all you want (I can take it), just please don’t do it in something that threatens to turn me and my family into unrecognizable lumps on the roadway.

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Chainsawflowerchild Sep 28th, 2005 Link

There is a time and place for an SUV. I have both a MINI and a Landcruiser – try fitting six people and their bikes in a MINI!

Most people don’t use a SUV for the right “time and place”. Driving to work, shopping, picking up the kid… Most of the people I know that drive an SUV actualy say they drive them because they don’t want to install tire chains on that once per year snow trip and that they feel safer driving a big car.

Give me the small car that I can dodge the SUV’s and I’ fine

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Evan Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I love this site.

Anyways, if people were really smart, they wouldn’t shy away from minivans. Seriously. They hold seven people and all of their stuff and get much better mpg than SUVs. The excuse of owning an SUV b/c of six people and bicylcles is weak. If you need an SUV, you must have to climb mountains regularly or tow something very, very large. Suck it up and buy a minivan. As one of six kids, the minivan is amazing. With two minivans in the fam I don’t know of any better family transport. This summer on the highway, our ‘99 Grand Caravan did 26-28mpg (without a/c) and 23mpg with a/c while carrying six people and a lot of stuff. It does 20mpg around town. That’s about 5-8mpg better around town and 8-10mpg better on the highway than any SUVs I’ve experienced or know of. Plus, they handle people better, and even handle on the road better.

Anyways, MINIs get good mpg considering the performance level. Drive anything hard and the mpg crashes. Cruising on the highway my MC does 37-38mpg, mix of driving is 34mpg and straight city with stop and go, traffic is 26-28mpg depending on summer and winter temps. Nothing to scoff at. This is what my girlfriend’s Civic does and I have a LOT MORE FUN!

I think in the end, the SUV trend is losing steam. Especially as each new generation of them resemble large station wagons or compromised minivans.

For serioius mpg, I want a diesel MINI or at least the BMW 320d- lucky europeans.

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Bill Lawrence Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I’ll stay out of the whole SUV arguement. That is a dead horse that has been beaten enough on NAM and MINI2.

One great thing about the MINI is that it one of the first cars where SMALL CAR does not equal TINY CHEAP CRAP CAR. At least here in the US. Before the MINI, if you wanted a small, nimble car, you had to buy a sports car. Except for the occasional GTI, there were not not very many cool, premium hatchbacks.

Let’s not forget that good design, performance and marketing has made one small hatchback (the MINI of course)the cool car to have, clearing the way for more great small cars in the US.

Bring on the MINI’s, Alfas, Clio Cups, Fiesta STs, Smarts and other cool European hot hatches!

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GMINI Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Good point, Evan.

Minivans are also far safer than any SUV, especially those built truck style. They are made to protect children and entire families.

However, the Minivan suffers from a marked stigma – one that soon these trucks might taste as well.

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nervous Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Since when did the flag-cloaking of “free speech & free choice” (… is “free choice” actually a USA thing or a Bible thing… anyway…) cover irresponsibility? Naively, I’ve never fully understood what was meant by “Ugly American” (I thought it had something to do with tennis shoes & hand-painted sweatshirts – admittedly ugly.) But, the grotesquely vain screw-you-I’ll-be-irresponsible-if-I-want-to attitude is truly jaw-dropping embarrassing. SUV ownership is overwhelmingly irresponsible – dangerous & eco-deadly. No safari grill is going to trick anyone into believing that they live ruggedly on a mountainside. No big will be big enough with the competition that volleys across white picket fences. Until the “cool” factor is lifted we will be at the mercy of this irresponsible fashion. Gratefully, there is a rising chorus against SUVs. The fickle “cool kids” will come around – it is their nature.

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Michael Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Since when did we buy MINIs because they were practical and rational? The same can probably be said for SUV drivers. In the same way we enjoy twisty roads, they may enjoy the high seating position, sense of infinite power and isolation. In the same way we justify our MINI purchases as being economical, they can justify an SUV purchase in terms of roominess. But someone who truly wants to save gas will buy an Insight, not a MINI, and someone who truly wants room will buy a minivan, not a SUV.

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nervous Sep 28th, 2005 Link

“isolation” is a good word.

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ChrisW Sep 28th, 2005 Link

A van truly is the ultimate of vehicles when it comes to practicality. What can be better for hauling stuff and people than a box on wheels? Nothing.

I wish VW had proceeded with the Microbus plans. That would have been a cool and useful vehicle, a rare combo. Too bad VW is too busy self-destructing.

And it really would be a piece of cake for Honda to offer AWD in the Odyssey; after all, the Pilot is just an Odyssey with an SUV body. Come on Honda.

Now, what were we talking about again? Oh yeah, small cars. :)

I’d love to see a Smart Roadster for sale in the States. Top Gear really raved about that car.

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James Sep 28th, 2005 Link

Interesting note:

I was talking to a Mercedes dealership about Smart cars and they had an interesting comment about their Smart line of cars. Yes, line of cars. The one you are most likely familiar with is the “fortwo” model – a two seater. There is also a “forfour”, and SUV types and sports car types.

The funny thing is they piloted the Smart SUV in the US and gave up trying to sell it because the market told them it wasn’t big enough or powerful enough.

It’s a shame because many people would be happy to have that option.

BTW, I have a Rendezvous because I had just bought a house and moved between cities and had a baby – space was critical. I am now happy to take my soon-to-be new mini to and from work and leave the bigger car home for emergencies and weekend grocery shopping trips.

Cheers!

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Aaron Sep 28th, 2005 Link

There’s more than one way to achieve the common goal of getting people out of SUVs, just as there are with most things in life. One approach is to give them the finger, shout obscenities at them, try to get them banned, or even to vandalize their vehicle. Often employed by radicals, adolescents, and zealots, this could be termed a negative reinforcement approach. Many of us are not particularly receptive to this technique of persuasion, and may even be inclined to respond with still more hostility. I generally find myself and others to be somewhat more receptive to positive suggestion, such as hearing firsthand from a MINI owner just how fun it is to drive a quality, quick, great-handling car that is easy to park and gets pretty decent mileage. In fact, it was a very pleasant conversation with a happy MINI owner parked next to my SUV that sealed my decision to buy a MINI. Just something to consider when you’re posting comments like “Choke on your Hummers and Escalades, yuppie scum”

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petsounds Sep 28th, 2005 Link

I’m not going to rehash points that were well made by previous posters.

However, I’d like to point out that we have far more to worry about from China. The automotive market is salivating at the emerging Chinese car market. The Chinese, aflush with new income, are car crazy. And specifically, they are SUV CRAZY. And American SUV makers are more than happy to supply their habit. For a country that holds a quarter of the world’s population, having them hooked on gas-guzzling SUVs is a Very Bad Thing (*tm). Considering that China is doing very little in the way of environmental initiatives and emission standards, it is a disaster in the making, and it will affect all of us. It already is, as winds have already been carrying across their pollution to our west coast.

And this is all going on as US scientists just released a report saying that all Arctic ice is disappearing quickly and may be completely gone by 2060: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4290340.stm

Clearly, it behooves us all to rethink what we drive and be responsible for our own actions and the impact those actions have on each other.

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Matt Sep 29th, 2005 Link

SUV’s can be awesome, if they have enough power to tow a mini or a race car.

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Robert Beauseau Sep 29th, 2005 Link

You are right on about China. That makes people in the US driving suv’s seem like asmall issue. Do you think they care much about EPA issues as they industrialize further? I read an article that said something like a quarter of our pollution in the USA can be attributed to wind-blown pollution from China. Not sure if I can get my arms around that but, if it is true, and a quarter of the 1.3 billion Chinese throw away their bicycles for cars or suv’s in the next 20 years, watch out. This world will be a cesspool. But cars aren’t even the tip of the iceberg of the environmental destruction that China’s industrial growth will cause.

Want another big problem? People are living longer too. I’ll get some hate mail for this but in my opinion people need to start thinking about how many kids they’re popping out and think about the impact that has on the future. Wear a condom, that’s all I’m asking. :-)

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Frank Sep 29th, 2005 Link

Aaron, great post.

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minihaha Sep 29th, 2005 Link

Wow this subject really stirs people’s emotions! Some very good points have been made and some off the wall stuff too, that’s why we enjoy this site so much. I bought my MCS purely as an indulgence to let me get my sillies out and on the whole behave badly. I am fortunate that I am in such a position. The Mini is somewhat of a unique vehicle, fun to drive, easy to park and for the most part get’s reasonable gas mileage. It isn’t sold as an econo-box nor as a family hauler. People all have their own reasons for choosing the vehicle that they believe meets their needs and our society provides them lots of choice. North American manufacturers have promoted the SUV with little or no regard for the consequences.

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Ron Sep 29th, 2005 Link

The problem is not being proSUV or antiSUV or proMINI or antiMINI.

The problem is when I start deciding what’s right for my neighbor (read next door or next country).

I find it (__) {fill in your own word} that a number of people posting here have the opinion that SUV’s are the (____) of the human race.

Get over it.

You sound like a (___)!

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Frank Sep 29th, 2005 Link

“Wear a condom?” I am afraid that won’t solve anything. The “over population” schtick is just a well constructed lie by left wing environmentalists and recalcitrant abortists. Just for the record, I am in the middle of the political spectrum.

Off the soap box.

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Frank Sep 29th, 2005 Link

With freedom comes responsabilities. A lot of people in our generation refuse to accept this very essential fact. Sure, you can own 2 H1 Hummers as part of your basic “freedom” of choice, but is that a responsible choice???

It is sad that this and the sense of what is right and what is wrong is quickly fading from our collective conciousness as a nation. The United States was founded with well layedout principles that unfortunately have been twisted and re-arranged to the conmfort and convenience of those who do not want to face the responsabilities and moral principles of being a citizen of the U.S.

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Herman L. Sep 29th, 2005 Link

The bottom line here is that all cars guzzle gas… if you truly say SUVs are the abomination of the human race, what about big transport trucks, they consume more gas, produce more pollution than the rest of the cars combined… and are EVEN hulking bigger, some often swerve sideways just to make you feel small…

also, remind me, doesn’t alot of mini owners (i myself am guilty of) burn rubber on the track and autox? those activities also seems to if i recall, consume more than normal amounts of gas… so we are JUST AS guilty as the SUV owners

bottom line is that we are all guilty for driving gas prices so high, question is whether we can accept the fact we are the ones killing ourselves… and it seems like alot won’t… and just place the blame on others

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John Connor Sep 29th, 2005 Link

My MINI milage:

Highway in 6th gear only – 30+ mph Regular mix driving (I tend to be agressive in my shifting and accelerating) – 22 mph On the track at Summit Point raceway – 12 mph

Still beats my Jeep Liberty, regular driving – 18 mph But doesn’t touch my Kawasaki W650 retro style bike – 50+ mph

• John

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ChrisW Sep 29th, 2005 Link

Ron, it’s silly to argue that an SUV (a mechanical man-mad object) is the () of the human race. The () of the human race is greed, gluttony, vanity, disregard for the well-being of one’s neighbor, etc. And like it or not, cruising around the ‘burbs in a Hummer demonstrates those undesireable human traits quite well, no?

Like I stated in my previous post, I couldn’t care less what my neighbor buys or drives, so long as it doesn’t needlessly threaten the physical safety of me or my family every time I have to go to the grocery store. So should everyone drive a micro car? Of course not. I just wish I didn’t have to contend with oversized (by design) vehicles driven for vanity sake and nothing more.

I think that’s what the anti-SUV rage ultimately boils down to. You can argue fuel economy, you can argue harm to the environment, you can argue bad taste, but ultimately, people get agitated when they feel physically threatened, and seing the word H U M M E R stamped in chrome bearing down on your rear-view mirror, well, personally I tend to perceive that as physically threatening. (Note: yes, Herman, seeing “Peterbilt” bearing down on your rear-view mirror is physically threatening as well, but I tend to view the transport of the goods I am going to the store to purchase as an acceptable threat…)

As for the fuel economy issue, well, simple economics will eventually take care of that on its own.

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Ron Sep 29th, 2005 Link

ChrisW…..well there you go again.

Did you read what I wrote.

The problem is when YOU start deciding what’s right for your neighor.

Having ANY motor device on a highway when you are on a highway in a motor device can be considered a needless threat by you or the other guy.

Get over it.

And stop deciding what’s right for the other guy.

Just saying “I couldn’t care less what my neighbor buys or drives” THEN listing what you object to is deciding what’s right for your neighbor.

And that makes you the problem!

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Frank Sep 29th, 2005 Link

Ron, I think you are the one mis-reading ChrisW’s post.

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Ron Sep 29th, 2005 Link

ChrisW has decided that his neighbor in a Hummer/SUV type is a threat to his safety and therefore shouldn’t be on the road.

He’s deciding what his neighbor should NOT be driving.

What did I miss?

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ChrisW Sep 29th, 2005 Link

OK Ron, explain to me how my neighbor’s Hummer is not a threat to my safety. Perhaps I’m just dim-witted.

Let’s say your neighbor pointed a rifle out his window at you every time you went out on your patio to barbeque. Would you feel threatened by this? And if so, why? This is America. He has the legal right to own a gun. He’s on his property. He should be able to do whatever he wants, right? He’s not actually shooting at you, so why would you feel bothered?

My neighbor can drive a pink Cadillac with bull horns on the hood for all I care. But when “fashion” dictates that people drive 3-ton vehicles (and talk on cell phones at the same time, but that’s another topic for another day), which would do serious harm to me, my vehicle, and my family even in a low-speed crash, then yes, I have a problem with that. Polyester bell bottoms and floral golf shirts are no threat to my safety. Large SUVs in a suburban environment are. “Don’t tread on me.”

I’m sorry you have a problem with my problem with that. If I’m the problem here, then I apologize. Had I only realized earlier that the big SUV issue was my own personal delusion, I would have been able to shrug it off. Thanks for clarifying.

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Frank Sep 29th, 2005 Link

Ron, I think ChrisW is making an emphasis on “Personal responsability” rather than to dictate what others should or should not drive. Obviously we all have the freedom of choice but that doesn’t exempt us from making well tought out and sensible choices, that’s all. Chris’ posts ties up nicely with my earlier comments about freedom and responsability. The two always go together, the minute you attempt to separate both you will have problems, like we are witnessing today in our troubled country.

I have a family member that owns a Hummer H2 and a new Hummer H3. Mind you this is a small 3 person family. He never ever goes offroading anywhere and basically both vehicles are used to go to the grocery store, shopping malls, errands, etc. Nothing that a regular, safer and more fuel efficient vehicle would do. My wife and I both own MINIs and he doesn’t understand why we like ‘em so much. This is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet, but he has all this twisted “Macho” ideas and his philosphy that bigger is always better. He has no regard for the environment or the safety or well being of others when it comes to his vehicle choices. I haven’t spoke to him in a while but I bet he is hurting big time at the pump filling up both of his 4WD beasts. I hope one day he comes to his senses. He and his wife are very smart people. Their intelligence simply don’t fit their love and fascination for the Hummer.

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Ron Sep 29th, 2005 Link

We’re going in circles.

I disagree with ChrisW’s point of deciding what his neighbor can or more imporantly can’t drive.

The issue is not about Hummers.

It’s about ChrisW deciding.

Here’s another silly example. Jet airplanes fly over my head. Jet airplanes sometimes fall out of the sky.

So, should I decide that you should never fly on a jet or even if Herb Keller and have an airline company?

But, I’ve perceived a threat to me.

My only point – Stop making your neighbor’s decisions.

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Zeke Wright Sep 29th, 2005 Link

Yes. Economics will / is the main factor in forcing people to become more economical. It’s a sad fact of life.

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ChrisW Sep 29th, 2005 Link

Ron, I’m not sure exactly when I said my neighbors should be lawfully forbidden from driving whatever they want. Nor did I say I expect my neighbors to propose their vehicle purchases to me for approval. I’m not sure where you’re reading that. And if you asked my neighbors, they’d tell you I’ve never been involved in their vehicle-buying decisions. So I guess I’m already following your advice to stop making my neighbors’ decisions. Looks like we agree on something.

I did say the government shouldn’t subsidize the purchase of large SUVs, but as a staunch conservative (which I am), I don’t expect the government to issue mandated cars that run on carrot juice either.

And the jet plane analogy is a silly example. You didn’t mention whether you’d feel threatened by a gun-toting neighbor.

I guess as a non-Hummer driver, from my own personal perspective, I’d put driving a Hummer around town in the same general category as talking on a cell phone in the movie theater. Some people will just never “get it,” no matter what you say to them, or how nicely you say it. Personal freedom is personal freedom, by damn, and they’re going to exercise it!

(My apologies to Hummer drivers who don’t talk on cell phones in the theater, and to theater-talking cell phone users who don’t drive Hummers.)

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minimc Sep 29th, 2005 Link

What’s so hard to grasp?

There are those who (whether they recognize it or not) appear to believe that their “freedom” trumps all – irrespective of its effect(s) on others.

Sure… spout off about how “I’m free to do this and that… “don’t try to tell me what I can and can’t do” Yup… this typical righteousness lasts up until someone else’s freedom steps on your own (or that of the ones you love). Then it’s not so cool.

Many people could drive smaller, safer, less polluting vehicles every day. For whatever reason(s) they choose not to. And according to you this is exercising their freedom.

Ron, try to look beyond your immediate circumstances & experience. You don’t live alone on the continental U.S. You are part of a local community, in a very large country. Pollution doesn’t care if you’re an American or not. Despite all our advances we can’t keep the air from our country in and other air out. That makes anything we or anyone else do a global issue.

Whether you care to recognize it or not your choices impact way more people than you.

Maybe you can grasp an analogous scenario?

How would you feel about your “freedom” and that of your neighbor if your neighbor decided he wanted to play LOUD music with lyrics you found offensive – all the time? Of course I’m talking within the law – decibels not too loud & within legal hours. What if he did this every day… at every waking hour that was legal… not just for parties? Would you feel that he was within his rights? Is he just exercising his freedom? Or… Is his freedom infringing on your own?

Maybe your right…? I guess I’ll just have to learn to appreciate the freedom of the oil companies; to make a profit irrespective of how it affects folks like you & those who would drive SUV’s to work day in and day out.

In the mean time you’d better hope that China doesn’t share your view of freedom & decide it’s more economical to run all Industry & motors without pollution controls.

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Ron Sep 29th, 2005 Link

Again (this seems to be an ongoing pattern) you’ve A) missed my point totally or B) made-up another totally un-related situation.

Let me try just one more time.

The problem is:

You need to stop making your neighbor’s decisions.

It’s not about guns or noise or freedom or even jet airplanes.

It’s about making your neighbor’s decisions.

Read thru out the postings of MINI owners and you’ll find over and over one example.

“I don’t want my neighbor driving a Hummer because they’re too big, they use too much gas, they intiminate me, or what ever.”

Yes, MINI drivers have the RIGHT to make their neighbor’s decision about what the nighbor drives. Expecially if it’s a Hummer. (if you read the postings)

My point, the only point I’m making, is not about noise, or guns, or freedom, or jets…..it’s about the mis-guided right a lot of MINI owners think they have to make their neighbor’s decisions (expecially on what the neighbor CANNOT drive).

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ChrisW Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Ron,

I give up.

Sincerely,

Your friendly neighborhood decision maker.

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Rocketboy Sep 30th, 2005 Link

A bad driver is a bad driver, no matter what they drive. Although, it is worse when a bad driver is driving a truck that requires more skill to drive. But I too am disturbed by the ‘holier than thou’ attitude many MINI owners have against SUV drivers. And if you drive an S (like I do), you have no ground to say anything about Miles Per Gallon, because you yourself did not make your decision based on MPG… same if you live in an area that has the MINI One.

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Ron Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Thanks Rocketboy,

I’m glad someone actually understands my only point.

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ChrisW Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Description of Straw Man (from nizkor.org)

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of “reasoning” has the following pattern:

Person A has position X. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X). Person B attacks position Y. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

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Ron Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Discription of SUV Owner (from ChrisW in post in this subject)

“But I reserve the right to resent any urban hipster doofus or silicone country-club queen who pimps around in an Escalade or Yukon XL with chrome spinners just because it’s “cool,” all the while causing me to steer wide for the sake of my safety and sanity. I can enjoy some bittersweet satisfaction at the current upward spiral of fuel costs (a price worth paying, in some ways I suppose). And U.S. automakers deserve to choke on the poison pill they created by focusing on these pretentious road pigs and ignoring all else for so long.”

Can you feel the love?

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Gabe Sep 30th, 2005 Link

I’m sorry but I don’t see where Chris said anything about that bit of being a “description of an SUV owner”. In fact saying that would indicate that you’ve completely missed the point of his original comments.

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SUVhater Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Yeah I think he has distorted the argument.

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Ron Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Gabe,

In my first post (8:27AM) I did not not mention any person.

But ChrisW (9:27AM post) named me specifically and direcly saying my position (which he totally misread) was silly.

He added “I couldn’t care less what my neighbor buys or drives, so long as it doesn’t needlessly threaten the physical safety of me or my family every time I have to go to the grocery store.”

He specifically decided that HE (so long as) has the right to decide what his neighbor buys and drives WHEN he feels threatened by his neigbor. Again, read CHRISW’s words.

If there a missing the point, who’s missing it?

The posting are there if anyone wants to read them.

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Frank Sep 30th, 2005 Link

This article summarizes quite nicely Ron’s point of view:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/decoster/decoster70.html

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Frank Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Hey Ron, you seems to have a lot of free time, no?

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Ron Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Nope, very busy.

But, I do have two different computers.

(One is a very small laptop that sit on the corner of my desk and this one is a very large case model that has to sit on the floor because it’s so big with a 21 inch monitor.

The big PC intimidates the laptop and sends out silly posts about it!!!!)

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Dave Sep 30th, 2005 Link

its funny to read all the comments about SUV’s. in Utah there is more Sububans and large 4 door pickup trucks on the road than there are cars And I laugh as i pass the corner gas station. I owm a 04 Mini Cooper It Has a few Mods.
I recently drove to California and was getting 510 miles to the Tank. on the Interstate. and between 28-32 mpg in the city stop and go traffic.

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ChrisW Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Ron, with all due respect, I hope you weren’t on the debate team (nor was I, so I suppose it’s amateur hour on both sides in this case).

But here’s my limited understanding of the best way to debate a particular issue.

First, if you’re going to single someone out in a debate (which is never the ideal approach in an online forum, but here we are…), you should actually know that person’s position. Your representation of my position is an obvious straw man. I’ve never once said I should decide what anyone else should do. If you’re reading my words and inferring that I demand the right to mandate what anyone else drives, then you’re confused.

Saying “I detest big SUVs” is in no way equivalent to saying “big SUVs should be outlawed and my neighbors should all drive MINI Coopers.” That’s your straw man.

Second, you should (ideally) have an actual position of your own (you are engaging in a debate, after all). “Stop making your neighbors’ decisions” isn’t really a position at all, now is it? (Nor does it make any sense in this case, but I digress…) I mean, you could use that argument for any possible point of contention, right?

There are some here who have made coherent counter arguments. Aaron, for example, pointed out that those of us who dislike SUVs should be more friendly in our criticism, which may help change minds. Fair enough, and a point well taken (some of my colorful labels are obviously the result of being on a MINI discussion forum – a place where you’d tend to expect some anti-SUV vitriol, though name-slinging is never the best approach in a debate, I admit). Others have stated MINI drivers should’t be self-righteous about environmental issues, since there are better choices out there than even a MINI if conservation is the argument. Very true.

Your argument, the classic “don’t tell me what to do” attitude, is what I personally despise about some people who drive large SUVs (disclaimer: not all have this attitude, and I recognize that). Or people who talk on their phones in the theater. Or people who let their dogs poop on your lawn. Or people who park in the fire lane at the store because they’re too lazy to walk. Or people who do any manner of what civilized society would call “rude and obnoxious things.” American freedom doesn’t require that you throw a hearty “screw you” to your fellow citizens.

All in all, it’s been an interesting discussion, and illustrates how wide the chasm between those who resent the big SUV fad, and those who relish it (and those who fall somewhere in between).

Sorry to everyone else – I shouldn’t have let myself be trolled out in this way. My apologies for my lengthy posts.

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Rocketboy Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Actually Ron, I didn’t even get that far down to read any of your comments… I read the first page or so, and it echoed many other anti-suv self-serving my MINI is better than your SUV because I don’t use as much gas arguments. I just don’t care what someone else drives. If they can afford the gas, more power to them. If that’s what they enjoy, great. The joy of freedom is that we can go for the Hummer, or the Prius. And I don’t think anyone’s better or worse because of either decision. I just hate when the decision is justified based on false impressions (my SUV is safer!, or my MINI Cooper is the most fuel efficent car evar!).

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Ron Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Well ChrisW,

there is sooooo much mis-stated in your 2nd post AFTER you gave up (see actual ChrisW post) that shows that you do have limited debate experience.

And (I promise I’ll not do EVERY one to keep this short), in debate the first requirement is NOT to know your oppenent’s position but to establish your position.

Next, if you actually use your oppenent’s actual quotes against him – you will probably win the debate.

But if the opponent has all ready conceeded (Ron, I give up. Sincerely, Your friendly neighborhood decision maker.)and admits he’s actually the point you’re debating – You have WON.

And if a debater makes up a quote”Your representation of my position is an obvious straw man. I’ve never once said I should decide what anyone else should do.” and it’s shown that what you said “I couldn’t care less what my neighbor buys or drives, so long as it doesn’t needlessly threaten the physical safety of me or my family every time I have to go to the grocery store.” You lose. (look at the ’so long as it doesn’t’ part of the quote – it’s called a qualifier and it has important meaning to the statement by establishing that you do want to control your neighbor.

Want a 2nd example of you making up my quotes? You made up a quote (you even used ” ” signs) that you said that I said – “I detest big SUVs” A full review of my posts will show that I made no such statement.

Finally, when you challenge a poster by name “Ron, it’s silly to argue that an SUV (a mechanical man-mad object) is the () of the human race. The () of the human race is greed, gluttony, vanity, disregard for the well-being of one’s neighbor, etc.”

You’d better be on much firmer ground than you are now.

I could go on….but won’t. You gave up hours ago.

And thanks to Frank with the link to the post that talks about all the love I see thru out all the postings about how way too many MINI drivers feel about SUVs, Hummers, etc.

Please go read it.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/decoster/decoster70.html

I think a MINI forum should discuss MINIs and leave the SUV bashing somewhere else.

Sadly that doesn’t happen on this site.

Can you feel the love?

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Pete Burke Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Not bashing SUVs, I own an ‘02 Cooper & a ‘97 SAAB 900s-no kids. I drive to work in lower Manhattan every afternoon (100 miles round trip). It is amazing how many SUVs are occupied by only one person! There’s the argument that we need SUVs because sedans are too small. Yet it seems there are never more than one to two folks in SUVs.

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ChrisW Sep 30th, 2005 Link

Wow Ron, seriously. I see you and something we call logic have never been properly introduced. I hope you’re not an attorney (highly unlikely), and if you are, I hope I never have the misfortune of having you represent me in court.

Why I don’t just withdraw from this inane conversation I don’t know (sadism perhaps?), and I imagine you and I are the only ones even reading this thread any longer, but why not, I’ll entertain your flawed sense of intellectual superiority for a moment longer, since I know you are just itching to throw some more confused mutterings my way.

First off, “I give up Ron” = obvious sarcasm. Sorry if I unintentionally gave you a false sense of joy that your debating skills were beating me into submission.

Does the fact that a neighbor’s decision to drive a Hummer bothers me mean that I argue I have the right to impose my will on him? Of course not. That’s ridiculous. And a straw man argument you invented and appear unwilling to abandon.

Next, my quote “I detest SUVs” was not attributed to you, as you can clearly see in my post (and it’s obviously not something you would say, which should be perfectly clear to the average reader). Nor are many of the other words I enclosed in quotation marks attributed to you (it’s not all about you, Ron). Your mental froth is becoming more evident.

And it is silly to call an SUV evil. It’s an inanimate object after all. That’s not “firm ground?” (yes, I am quoting you that time Ron)

I would love to know your actual position on this topic, aside from your oft-stated and painfully obvious point that I shouldn’t tell my neighbors what to do (which rule I already live and believe in, thank you very much).

Are you a Hummer driver? A GM employee? Just curious. Knowing you were a Hummer driver would give me that much more reason to steer wide of one.

I’m sorry that the big SUV community unwittingly has you as one of its spokespeople. And if the majority share your mentality, I’d feel compelled to sell my wife’s SUV just to distance myself.

I’ll stop now, expecting Gabe will shut this down at some point (this is a typically happy place, after all). I apologize that your ignorance in our exchange has irritated me to the point of being unfriendly. If Aaron’s post made me rethink my hostility toward large SUV drivers, your posts have brought it roaring back to life. Thanks.

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Gabe Sep 30th, 2005 Link

And with that I’d like to close this post. We’ll all have to agree to disagree.

Have a good weekend everyone.

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Chris Nov 10th, 2005 Link

I own a smaller ford ranger truck, and a 2004 Mini. I get 35.2 mpg with the Mini, and 27 with the Ranger. I also own a Ford f-350 which only gets 13 mpg and 8 mpg with a trailer. I only use the f-350 truck as required, drive the Mini on those longer drives and to work. I use the ranger for driving daily as well as to pick up not overly large items.

IT IS TRUE THAT AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO BUY ANY VEHICLE AS ALOTTED BY THE LAW, and I will not deny it. However, I will say that some Americans cannot afford to buy a new honda civic to replace their 1982 buick park avenue. I will also say that those with lots of money, they would drive a train to work if they felt like buying one. My cousin owns a Hummer H3 and my other cousin has an almost brand new porsche with 450 horsepower. I can say that they have money and they don’t really care that they are using gas like crazy and polluting the environment.

I think what we can only do is ENCOURAGE and PROMOTE that Americans be more economical and environmentally friendly with their vehicles/vehicle choice. After all, this is a democracy.

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