IT IS TRUE THAT AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO BUY ANY VEHICLE AS ALOTTED BY THE LAW, and I will not deny it. However, I will say that some Americans cannot afford to buy a new honda civic to replace their 1982 buick park avenue. I will also say that those with lots of money, they would drive a train to work if they felt like buying one. My cousin owns a Hummer H3 and my other cousin has an almost brand new porsche with 450 horsepower. I can say that they have money and they don’t really care that they are using gas like crazy and polluting the environment.

I think what we can only do is ENCOURAGE and PROMOTE that Americans be more economical and environmentally friendly with their vehicles/vehicle choice. After all, this is a democracy.

Have a good weekend everyone.

Why I don’t just withdraw from this inane conversation I don’t know (sadism perhaps?), and I imagine you and I are the only ones even reading this thread any longer, but why not, I’ll entertain your flawed sense of intellectual superiority for a moment longer, since I know you are just itching to throw some more confused mutterings my way.

First off, “I give up Ron” = obvious sarcasm. Sorry if I unintentionally gave you a false sense of joy that your debating skills were beating me into submission.

Does the fact that a neighbor’s decision to drive a Hummer bothers me mean that I argue I have the right to impose my will on him? Of course not. That’s ridiculous. And a straw man argument you invented and appear unwilling to abandon.

Next, my quote “I detest SUVs” was not attributed to you, as you can clearly see in my post (and it’s obviously not something you would say, which should be perfectly clear to the average reader). Nor are many of the other words I enclosed in quotation marks attributed to you (it’s not all about you, Ron). Your mental froth is becoming more evident.

And it is silly to call an SUV evil. It’s an inanimate object after all. That’s not “firm ground?” (yes, I am quoting you that time Ron)

I would love to know your actual position on this topic, aside from your oft-stated and painfully obvious point that I shouldn’t tell my neighbors what to do (which rule I already live and believe in, thank you very much).

Are you a Hummer driver? A GM employee? Just curious. Knowing you were a Hummer driver would give me that much more reason to steer wide of one.

I’m sorry that the big SUV community unwittingly has you as one of its spokespeople. And if the majority share your mentality, I’d feel compelled to sell my wife’s SUV just to distance myself.

I’ll stop now, expecting Gabe will shut this down at some point (this is a typically happy place, after all). I apologize that your ignorance in our exchange has irritated me to the point of being unfriendly. If Aaron’s post made me rethink my hostility toward large SUV drivers, your posts have brought it roaring back to life. Thanks.

there is sooooo much mis-stated in your 2nd post AFTER you gave up (see actual ChrisW post) that shows that you do have limited debate experience.

And (I promise I’ll not do EVERY one to keep this short), in debate the first requirement is NOT to know your oppenent’s position but to establish your position.

Next, if you actually use your oppenent’s actual quotes against him – you will probably win the debate.

But if the opponent has all ready conceeded (Ron, I give up. Sincerely, Your friendly neighborhood decision maker.)and admits he’s actually the point you’re debating – You have WON.

And if a debater makes up a quote”Your representation of my position is an obvious straw man. I’ve never once said I should decide what anyone else should do.” and it’s shown that what you said “I couldn’t care less what my neighbor buys or drives, so long as it doesn’t needlessly threaten the physical safety of me or my family every time I have to go to the grocery store.” You lose. (look at the ‘so long as it doesn’t’ part of the quote – it’s called a qualifier and it has important meaning to the statement by establishing that you do want to control your neighbor.

Want a 2nd example of you making up my quotes? You made up a quote (you even used ” ” signs) that you said that I said – “I detest big SUVs” A full review of my posts will show that I made no such statement.

Finally, when you challenge a poster by name “Ron, it’s silly to argue that an SUV (a mechanical man-mad object) is the () of the human race. The () of the human race is greed, gluttony, vanity, disregard for the well-being of one’s neighbor, etc.”

You’d better be on much firmer ground than you are now.

I could go on….but won’t. You gave up hours ago.

And thanks to Frank with the link to the post that talks about all the love I see thru out all the postings about how way too many MINI drivers feel about SUVs, Hummers, etc.

Please go read it.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/decoster/decoster70.html

I think a MINI forum should discuss MINIs and leave the SUV bashing somewhere else.

Sadly that doesn’t happen on this site.

Can you feel the love?

But here’s my limited understanding of the best way to debate a particular issue.

First, if you’re going to single someone out in a debate (which is never the ideal approach in an online forum, but here we are…), you should actually know that person’s position. Your representation of my position is an obvious straw man. I’ve never once said I should decide what anyone else should do. If you’re reading my words and inferring that I demand the right to mandate what anyone else drives, then you’re confused.

Saying “I detest big SUVs” is in no way equivalent to saying “big SUVs should be outlawed and my neighbors should all drive MINI Coopers.” That’s your straw man.

Second, you should (ideally) have an actual position of your own (you are engaging in a debate, after all). “Stop making your neighbors’ decisions” isn’t really a position at all, now is it? (Nor does it make any sense in this case, but I digress…) I mean, you could use that argument for any possible point of contention, right?

There are some here who have made coherent counter arguments. Aaron, for example, pointed out that those of us who dislike SUVs should be more friendly in our criticism, which may help change minds. Fair enough, and a point well taken (some of my colorful labels are obviously the result of being on a MINI discussion forum – a place where you’d tend to expect some anti-SUV vitriol, though name-slinging is never the best approach in a debate, I admit). Others have stated MINI drivers should’t be self-righteous about environmental issues, since there are better choices out there than even a MINI if conservation is the argument. Very true.

Your argument, the classic “don’t tell me what to do” attitude, is what I personally despise about some people who drive large SUVs (disclaimer: not all have this attitude, and I recognize that). Or people who talk on their phones in the theater. Or people who let their dogs poop on your lawn. Or people who park in the fire lane at the store because they’re too lazy to walk. Or people who do any manner of what civilized society would call “rude and obnoxious things.” American freedom doesn’t require that you throw a hearty “screw you” to your fellow citizens.

All in all, it’s been an interesting discussion, and illustrates how wide the chasm between those who resent the big SUV fad, and those who relish it (and those who fall somewhere in between).

Sorry to everyone else – I shouldn’t have let myself be trolled out in this way. My apologies for my lengthy posts.

But, I do have two different computers.

(One is a very small laptop that sit on the corner of my desk and this one is a very large case model that has to sit on the floor because it’s so big with a 21 inch monitor.

The big PC intimidates the laptop and sends out silly posts about it!!!!)

http://www.lewrockwell.com/decoster/decoster70.html

In my first post (8:27AM) I did not not mention any person.

But ChrisW (9:27AM post) named me specifically and direcly saying my position (which he totally misread) was silly.

He added “I couldn’t care less what my neighbor buys or drives, so long as it doesn’t needlessly threaten the physical safety of me or my family every time I have to go to the grocery store.”

He specifically decided that HE (so long as) has the right to decide what his neighbor buys and drives WHEN he feels threatened by his neigbor. Again, read CHRISW’s words.

If there a missing the point, who’s missing it?

The posting are there if anyone wants to read them.

“But I reserve the right to resent any urban hipster doofus or silicone country-club queen who pimps around in an Escalade or Yukon XL with chrome spinners just because it’s “cool,” all the while causing me to steer wide for the sake of my safety and sanity. I can enjoy some bittersweet satisfaction at the current upward spiral of fuel costs (a price worth paying, in some ways I suppose). And U.S. automakers deserve to choke on the poison pill they created by focusing on these pretentious road pigs and ignoring all else for so long.”

Can you feel the love?

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of “reasoning” has the following pattern:

Person A has position X. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X). Person B attacks position Y. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

I’m glad someone actually understands my only point.

I give up.

Sincerely,

Your friendly neighborhood decision maker.

Let me try just one more time.

The problem is:

You need to stop making your neighbor’s decisions.

It’s not about guns or noise or freedom or even jet airplanes.

It’s about making your neighbor’s decisions.

Read thru out the postings of MINI owners and you’ll find over and over one example.

“I don’t want my neighbor driving a Hummer because they’re too big, they use too much gas, they intiminate me, or what ever.”

Yes, MINI drivers have the RIGHT to make their neighbor’s decision about what the nighbor drives. Expecially if it’s a Hummer. (if you read the postings)

My point, the only point I’m making, is not about noise, or guns, or freedom, or jets…..it’s about the mis-guided right a lot of MINI owners think they have to make their neighbor’s decisions (expecially on what the neighbor CANNOT drive).