Comments on: Is the 2007 MCS Faster than JCW GP? (No) http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/ MINI Cooper news, reviews and opinion. Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:04:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: carcounsel.com http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-48564 carcounsel.com Mon, 14 Aug 2006 04:07:02 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-48564 <p>not to get too far off track here but with BMWs RWD cars, each generation's standard model stands close to the outgoing generation's 'tuned' variant. e.g. the E36 M3 sedan rough equivalent to E46 330i is roughly equivalent to E90 328i in power and torque production - tracks get wider and body strength:mass ratios, high speed lift and suspension kinematics are better managed with successive generations as well.</p> <p>i'm not saying i believe 14 seconds, but if the new Cooper car has the flat bottom that the current 5 and 3 series cars sport for example I could see that as bringing the standard car to roughly where the GP stands in aero managment, surely a much bigger deal on a high speed track like the ring.</p> not to get too far off track here but with BMWs RWD cars, each generation’s standard model stands close to the outgoing generation’s ‘tuned’ variant. e.g. the E36 M3 sedan rough equivalent to E46 330i is roughly equivalent to E90 328i in power and torque production – tracks get wider and body strength:mass ratios, high speed lift and suspension kinematics are better managed with successive generations as well.

i’m not saying i believe 14 seconds, but if the new Cooper car has the flat bottom that the current 5 and 3 series cars sport for example I could see that as bringing the standard car to roughly where the GP stands in aero managment, surely a much bigger deal on a high speed track like the ring.

]]> By: Philip http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-48226 Philip Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:41:54 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-48226 <p>chows4us, trust me. You can get the same driver to drive the same car on two different days and he might do lap times with quite different times. The Nordschleife is beast. There is many factors that will effect lap times.</p> <p>But what I really wanted to remind everyone is, that if you're a really good, concentrated driver, you will easily beat the other guy in his GP.</p> <p>And then again, aren't we here for the fun? :-D</p> chows4us, trust me. You can get the same driver to drive the same car on two different days and he might do lap times with quite different times. The Nordschleife is beast. There is many factors that will effect lap times.

But what I really wanted to remind everyone is, that if you’re a really good, concentrated driver, you will easily beat the other guy in his GP.

And then again, aren’t we here for the fun? :-D

]]> By: Ian C. http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-48159 Ian C. Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:26:57 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-48159 <p>GPMINI - note the smiley in my original comment, and then see <a href="http://www.gpmini.net/mtblog/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gpmini.net/mtblog/</a> ;)</p> GPMINI – note the smiley in my original comment, and then see http://www.gpmini.net/mtblog/ ;)

]]> By: chows4us http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-48154 chows4us Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:15:37 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-48154 The fact that one driver may be quicker than another is not relavent to the published Ring times. Take a look at some of the drivers listed … you got factory drivers in there like Walther RÒ¶hrl … others like Hans Stuck and the Covette Chief Engineer Dave Hill. These numbers are for bragging rights. Don’t you think Corvette wants the best possible numbers for the Z06 so they claim they are faster than say a 997S for much less money?

For example, the fact that the Cayman S is actually four seconds quicker than the base 997 driven by the same factory driver has, from what I read, shaken some of the 997 faithful.

Something isn’t right here. MINI should specifically state which cars they are comparing or the numbers are meaningless.

]]> By: Philip http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-48138 Philip Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:19:36 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-48138 <p>It's all down to the driver anyway! There is guys kicking my butt in a MINI One on the Nordschleife, so relax anyone. (And I have done over 60 fast laps on the Nordschleife in my MCS - so I'm not a beginner.)</p> It’s all down to the driver anyway! There is guys kicking my butt in a MINI One on the Nordschleife, so relax anyone. (And I have done over 60 fast laps on the Nordschleife in my MCS – so I’m not a beginner.)

]]> By: Frank http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-48097 Frank Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:44:21 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-48097 <p>Please let's compare apples to apples, shall we?</p> <p>I would like to see a comparo between a '05+ JCW 210HP equipped MCS vs a '06 MCS JCW GP. I have a gut feeling the time differences between the two will be substantially lesser than 14 seconds.</p> <p>I agree with Chows4us. Something doesn't jive here.</p> Please let’s compare apples to apples, shall we?

I would like to see a comparo between a ‘05+ JCW 210HP equipped MCS vs a ‘06 MCS JCW GP. I have a gut feeling the time differences between the two will be substantially lesser than 14 seconds.

I agree with Chows4us. Something doesn’t jive here.

]]> By: karlInSanDiego http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-48040 karlInSanDiego Thu, 10 Aug 2006 05:28:33 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-48040 My favorite Nurburgring lapping is a woman kicking major butt in a Ford Transit Van

http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1135852351/Top_Gear_NѼrburgring

]]> By: GPMINI http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-48019 GPMINI Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:39:10 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-48019 <blockquote>Remember there is also some aero differences on the GP. I’m not claiming they contribute these differences but they also could be factored into your weight drop & peak power “calculation”</blockquote> <p>Like I said... skin job. Ok, I'll give you 1 second for a bit more downforce in the rear. ;) However, I strongly doubt that they dialed in enough oversteer on the production car to really take advantage of this.</p> Remember there is also some aero differences on the GP. I’m not claiming they contribute these differences but they also could be factored into your weight drop & peak power “calculation”

Like I said… skin job. Ok, I’ll give you 1 second for a bit more downforce in the rear. ;) However, I strongly doubt that they dialed in enough oversteer on the production car to really take advantage of this.

]]> By: GPMINI http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-48015 GPMINI Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:29:51 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-48015 <blockquote>GPMINI - you’ve got my name! ;)</blockquote> <p>Sorry? Looks like your name is Ian.</p> GPMINI – you’ve got my name! ;)

Sorry? Looks like your name is Ian.

]]> By: Ian C. http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47960 Ian C. Wed, 09 Aug 2006 22:29:15 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47960 Full quote from the British Motor Show press release: Comparison tests on the race track proved that the MINI GP offers even better performance than the popular MINI Cooper S with the JCW Tuning Kit. The MINI GP laps the Nordschleife of NҼrburgring in under 8 minutes, 42 seconds. Almost 14 seconds faster than the production model. The ‘GP’ benefits not only from its greater engine power, but also from aerodynamic improvements that reduce lift on both the front and rear axle

]]> By: chows4us http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47943 chows4us Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:00:37 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47943 <p>The only comprehensive list of Ring times on the Internet (at least that I could find) is here http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=3&fID=0&tID=10073 Other lists tend to refer to this list.</p> <p>The 2004 JCW 200 car on this list is 14 seconds slower than the GP quoted in here http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060623.003/page/1/country/ecf/lang/eng/mini/mini-cooper-s-jcw-gp-kit-in-depth and noted by Diego above.</p> <p>The logical conclusion is that we are talking about the same car as that is the only published time for a JCW. If it were a 2005 JCW 210, I would presume it would have to be quicker. However, I cannot definitively say that is true but I think this is a very good and logical conclusion.</p> The only comprehensive list of Ring times on the Internet (at least that I could find) is here http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=3&fID=0&tID=10073 Other lists tend to refer to this list.

The 2004 JCW 200 car on this list is 14 seconds slower than the GP quoted in here http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060623.003/page/1/country/ecf/lang/eng/mini/mini-cooper-s-jcw-gp-kit-in-depth and noted by Diego above.

The logical conclusion is that we are talking about the same car as that is the only published time for a JCW. If it were a 2005 JCW 210, I would presume it would have to be quicker. However, I cannot definitively say that is true but I think this is a very good and logical conclusion.

]]> By: Gabe http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47937 Gabe Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:26:29 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47937 <blockquote> <p>This is very misleading.</p> </blockquote> <p>Maybe I'm missing something here but how do you know what car and spec BMW is referencing in their PR release?</p>

This is very misleading.

Maybe I’m missing something here but how do you know what car and spec BMW is referencing in their PR release?

]]> By: chows4us http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47935 chows4us Wed, 09 Aug 2006 18:42:24 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47935 <p>This 14 second thing is misleading and perhaps deceiving.</p> <p>The JCW reference is from this car</p> <p>8:55 Mini Cooper S Works, 200 hp (sport auto ??/04)</p> <p>So they are comparing the GP against a MY2004 JCW with both the OLD JCW kit AND the older gearing. The newer gearing should be a lot quicker accelerating out of those 200+ turns and lets add in the additional 10 bhp.</p> <p>I would imagine a MY05 210 JCW to be very close to the GP times at the ring.</p> <p>This is very misleading.</p> This 14 second thing is misleading and perhaps deceiving.

The JCW reference is from this car

8:55 Mini Cooper S Works, 200 hp (sport auto ??/04)

So they are comparing the GP against a MY2004 JCW with both the OLD JCW kit AND the older gearing. The newer gearing should be a lot quicker accelerating out of those 200+ turns and lets add in the additional 10 bhp.

I would imagine a MY05 210 JCW to be very close to the GP times at the ring.

This is very misleading.

]]> By: Ian C. http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47931 Ian C. Wed, 09 Aug 2006 18:17:30 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47931 <p>GPMINI - you've got my name! ;) Remember there is also some aero differences on the GP. I'm not claiming they contribute these differences but they also could be factored into your weight drop & peak power "calculation"</p> GPMINI – you’ve got my name! ;) Remember there is also some aero differences on the GP. I’m not claiming they contribute these differences but they also could be factored into your weight drop & peak power “calculation”

]]> By: Mark Hendrie http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47873 Mark Hendrie Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:51:39 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47873 <p>I wonder if anyone short of a professional driver could actually tell the difference and appreciate it?</p> I wonder if anyone short of a professional driver could actually tell the difference and appreciate it?

]]> By: GPMINI http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47819 GPMINI Wed, 09 Aug 2006 05:18:21 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47819 <p>The GP is 14 secs faster around the ring than a "stock" JCW? Only if "stock" means that said JCW did not have the JCW suspension. With the same suspension and brakes, these two cars would be very, very close. A 3% weight reduction and 4% more peak hp would not give the GP much of an edge at all. Don't believe the hype. It's a skin job.</p> The GP is 14 secs faster around the ring than a “stock” JCW? Only if “stock” means that said JCW did not have the JCW suspension. With the same suspension and brakes, these two cars would be very, very close. A 3% weight reduction and 4% more peak hp would not give the GP much of an edge at all. Don’t believe the hype. It’s a skin job.

]]> By: eto http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47797 eto Wed, 09 Aug 2006 03:27:30 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47797 <p>Well, now it looks like the mystery is the difference in lap times for the current generation Cooper S and the JCW. If that can be located, all the puzzle pieces will fall into place... :D</p> Well, now it looks like the mystery is the difference in lap times for the current generation Cooper S and the JCW. If that can be located, all the puzzle pieces will fall into place… :D

]]> By: Mark (Ohio) http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47785 Mark (Ohio) Wed, 09 Aug 2006 02:19:20 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47785 <p>...ugh come on, who really drives a stock MCS or even fully stock JCW MCS anyway! :)</p> …ugh come on, who really drives a stock MCS or even fully stock JCW MCS anyway! :)

]]> By: Diego Lopez http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47777 Diego Lopez Wed, 09 Aug 2006 01:40:12 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47777 <p>yeah, i'd hope the GP would stay on top for now...considering i put down for one ;)</p> yeah, i’d hope the GP would stay on top for now…considering i put down for one ;)

]]> By: Gabe http://www.motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/comment-page-1/#comment-47776 Gabe Wed, 09 Aug 2006 01:33:57 +0000 http://motoringfile.com/2006/08/08/2007-mcs-faster-than-jcw-gp/#comment-47776 <p>Whew - that makes a helluva a lot more sense than the press release I saw. I hope it's right. The GP should retain some sort of track-day superiority for at least a year!</p> Whew – that makes a helluva a lot more sense than the press release I saw. I hope it’s right. The GP should retain some sort of track-day superiority for at least a year!

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