For the past year or two there has been much speculation about what MINI will do after it releases the R55 Clubman and R57 Convertible. MINI is reportedly looking to expand sales and insure long term profitability with the next addition to the line-up and the pressure is immense to get it right yet stay true to the brand. Rumors have circulated both about a MINI speedster and of course the often discussed and debated cross-over. Over the past year we’ve been told by sources that the cross-over had the inside track to production and in fact the initial design process had already begun. We can now report that these same sources have confirmed much of what we had previously reported and that forth MINI model is now in development.
Sources are telling us that the cross-over will be based off of the R55 chassis but may be both larger and have more doors. In fact it has been called a “beefier Clubman” by one source who is familiar with the product. However the R60 (or R59 – strangely both code-names have been used by sources) will be different from the Clubman in another significant way as it will also debut a new (and very efficient) four wheel drive system.
Inside we’re told to expect a different interior with new features and an updated (yet still very MINI) look and feel. Expect a ruggedness not found in any MINI product currently offered.
While MINI is still in planning stages, we’re told executives at the BMW Group are looking at production locations outside the Oxford plant – possibly Spartanburg South Carolina or even the newly opened India BMW plant. One thing is certain, Oxford won’t have the capacity (in it’s current configuration) to take on yet another model after the Convertible starts production in late 2008.
The MINI cross-over is slated for release sometime during the 2010 model year.
Note: We’ve reported previously, that the internal code name for the cross-over (or “Colorado” project as it’s called by some internally) was to be the R58. However BMW will be using either the R59 or R60 numerical code name for the vehicle as it gets closer to production. Why is it not he R58? We’re not entirely sure. However we can guess that R58 was used for another concept that either didn’t come to fruition yet or has been scrapped altogether.
Gabe, I want to be first in line for the Cooper S JCW AWD!! It’s not much of a stretch now that this is being considered RIGHT??!! Finally, my dream Mini has a chance!!
>Gabe, I want to be first in line for the Cooper S JCW AWD!! It’s not much of a stretch now that this is being considered RIGHT??!! Finally, my dream Mini has a chance!!
From my understanding this doesn’t mean there will be an AWD version of the coupe.
Maybe the R58 is the convertible clubman….
I’m concerned this MINI brand could be drifting too far afield with this move. A “beefier Clubman”? I hope they know what they’re doing.
>I’m concerned this MINI brand could be drifting too far afield with this move. A “beefier Clubman”? I hope they know what they’re doing.
I totally agree.
It will be cool if it’s X5 performance or better in a “MINI” package. To me this is more exciting than the clubman! Any speculation on where it will be built if Oxford does not have the capacity?
I like the idea of the Colorado being based on the Clubman rather than the 1 series. It keeps the car more in line with the MINI product. I also think it would be exciting for the car to be built in South Carolina, because the yanks would be able to do a factory tour without crossing the pond. 🙂
While a JCW cooper S with AWD would be cool it would be enormously expensive. Keep in mind while it doesn’t necessarily compete a 135i is expect around 35k.
I think an AWD option on the coupes or at least the S would be a nice option for those that want it.
I agree it will probably be expensive, however, as reference a BMW X5 base model (V6) start in the mid 40’s.
A pal on the Oxford tour saw an intriguing shape literally under wraps there – sized like a beefier Clubman, according to what he he estimated. Interesting.
R58 = A flying “MINI MINI Bang Bang”?
AWD would be very desirable on a Mini, particularly up here in the Great White North.
Gabe, Your right, not necessarily an AWD “S” but just my hope. I like the idea better then a Beefier Clubman!!!!!
BMW hasn’t done a really good job with SUV’s.
I’m guessing the ride will be harsh as heck.
So much news on stuff two years away. How about some news on something more current like JCW stage one. It’s out in Europe(pictures on MF) and I can’t believe I haven’t seen or heard one review or any details!
>So much news on stuff two years away. How about some news on something more current like JCW stage one. It’s out in Europe(pictures on MF) and I can’t believe I haven’t seen or heard one review or any details!
There’s nothing new to report really. The kits are on their way to dealers in Europe and are a few weeks out in the US.
>BMW hasn’t done a really good job with SUV’s.
I’m not a fan of SUVs but I would disagree with that statement. The X5 pretty much defined the category of sporty car based SUVs over the years. And of course the X5 was also co-designed by Frank Stephenson (FWIW).
Gabe talking about the “stage 1” JCW engine, are the dealerships actually going to have them in stock(later this month) just as they are getting their bulletin about it, and is the JCW suspension coming out with it…thanks again, I just can’t wait any longer!!!
Awesome — maybe they could call it the X3? . . . oh, wait, nevermind.
I agree with the line of thinking that overexpansion of the line into the BMW market is not a good thing FWITW
No doubt that a “beefier Clubman” will be very different from my modded ’04 Cooper S. But if they do get it right and stay true to the brand’s spirit, I can dump the current vehicular appliance (hint: soul of a sofa) and do suburban Dad things like run to Home Depot for mulch, taxi the son + drums, commute to work in the snow, and buy a table at a yard sale … in a MINI! I just hope it comes with a sturdy set of cargo tie-downs.
i think this could be very cool!! think of something like the infinity FX or mazda cx-7 but “MINI small” with a powerful racy super fuel efficient engine with all wheel drive and 18+ inch wheels. now that would be awesome!!!!! like a MINI moon rover mobile.
Very nervous with the talk of a cross-over, I am not a fan of SUV’s, yes they have a time and place but since 90% of all of them you see have a single occupant I believe this need is more imagined that real in a majority of the drivers. I hope Mini crafts this very carefully because a SUV dropped into the middle of the community could do some serious damage to the one aspect Mini has over any other manufacturers currently. I can say that once a SUV Mini hits the road I will keep my classic, my R53 JCW but likely will end my association with the Mini brand.
I think MINI should stay out of the SUV craze. Any further dilution of the marque, beyond Clubman, will have its consequences.
thing is, think of the MINI SUV as a SUPER SMALL 4 seater with more aggressive wheels and all wheel drive. nobody said it has to be a gas guzzler and hold 6-9 people. it could redefine the SUV. it could be nothing more than a more aggressive, raised R56 with awesome rugged wheels and a more infinity FXish look. the current MCS engine could easily power a small, 4 seater all wheel drive vehicle. think small here people!!!
<blockquote>I’m concerned this MINI brand could be drifting too far afield with this move. A “beefier Clubman”? I hope they know what they’re doing.</blockquote>
Is diversity really the avenue to success for a car company like MINI? Does there have to be a MINI dune buggy before this is all said and done? I don’t know the answer. And not knowing more about it, it’s hard to think one way or another on this expected vehicle. But I will say that I hope MINI doesn’t go the route Porsche and Benz did in introducing both an SUV and mini van respectively. I know people who love their Cheyennes, and the R-class must work for somebody ’cause I see them at Target. I just hate to see some of the soul sucked out of a car marque because a particular automotive sector has growth potential.
The prospect of an AWD MINI is pretty cool, at least for those who truly need it, so that’s great. I just have philosophical curiosity is all. MINI has been such a bombshell success, I wonder if we don’t run the risk of watering it down in so much diversity. I don’t know if it will, I just wonder what that threshold is.
Beefier Clubman = <strong>RAV</strong>MAN
Think ‘SMALL SUV’ people…smaller than a Rav4, Forester or CR-V. It’s certainly not going to be another Escalade, Blazer or Excursion! Have some confidence in the designers, if it strays too far from the marque, they will alienate their target market: people who are drawn to MINI’s unique styling, but want a more utilitarian vehicle. Besides, I can see this new car fixing some of the styling issues I have with the Clubman, mainly it’s thin, stretched out appearance. A higher lift with wider arches, body kit and tires will fix that right up! 😉
I agree with mini vanilli here. I believe that the r59/60 will be a soft offroader much like the Volvo XC70 and the Audi Allroad. No SUV. Just bigger tires and some protective shields under the car for protection.
Just so long as it can be easliy dropped and stiffened, I’m interested. I’m assuming that (1) you could just swap out whatever silly “off road” suspension bits they put on is and (2) any “ruggedizing” of the design would be plastic cladding that could be easily reoved to clean up the exterior.
I don’t quite understand the naysayers who complain about MINI expanding the line up. There aren’t any big name car companies out there that make 2 models (sorry but to me the only two models are the Cooper and Clubman. The Convertible is still a Cooper. And in S form or regular, still a Cooper).
I think this new offering COULD be a great thing if the vehicle is capable of off-roading. I’m talking harsh nasty off-roading. But being able to use it to go on forest roads and into the mountains, to hike and such, would be awesome.
The soul of MINI is not in the shape. It’s in the look, the feel and the heart. And won’t be tallied until this car is out for press testing.
Correction to above, I meant “I’m not talking about harsh nasty off-roading”. I left out the “not”.
Check out the new issue of Road & Track for a brief article and drawing.
Hmm. Well, this would basically assure that I don’t buy a MINI again. I just have basic, philosophical differences with an SUV (or any sub-variant thereof), and I thought the MINI brand did as well. I guess that was just fluff marketing to attract their core brand audience.
Now, if they instead strapped on an AWD system to a Cooper S and they would be assured that I would buy another MINI. Everyone is clamoring for it; does MINI not read MotoringFile? It’s a pretty easy risk analysis: build what the customer wants to drive.
I’m sure Sir Alec Issigonis is rolling in his grave over this news. Mini, once a standout, now a follower of the almighty dollar of the ball fields across America.
So, when will the new advertisements hit Parents magazine. 😉
If a automotive brand having an SUV in the lineup means you can’t buy from them, then what does that leave you, buying a Rolls Royce or Aston Martin? That’s a hollow argument.
So it sounds like the AWD will be to the Clobman like the Volvo XC70 is to the V70 wagon. A little more suspension travel, AWD and maybe larger “soft roader” wheels and tire. I could get behind that.
<blockquote> Does there have to be a MINI dune buggy before this is all said and done?</blockquote>
Now that would be <em>really</em> cool!
I love how rumors or even the tiniest little bit of info about a MINI that isn’t a Cooper or Cooper S just brings the Chickens Little out of the woodwork.
So you won’t buy a MINI if they make an SUV? How dumb is that? If the MINI Cooper fits your needs and desires, then why should it matter if they make an SUV to satisfy those people that like them? You don’t have to buy it. MINI is not in business to satisfy some philosophy, they are in business to sell cars, and the more successful they are at it, the better it will be for all of us. I am not a particular fan of convertibles, but the fact that MINI builds one did not cause me to abandon the brand, any more than I would boycott BMW because thay make the X3 and X5. I have no use for either of these, but any other BMW would be just fine. Some of you people need to realize that MINI is not your own private car company, and if you don’t want to buy another one, then goodbye and good riddance!
Old Mini people will know that classic Mini derivatives included a Traveller/Countryman (new Clubman), a Panel Van, a Pick-up, and a Moke (jeep-type vehicle). Issigonis built a prototype Moke with two engines in front and rear 4-w-d for Military use but idea was canned. Also John Cooper made a 4-w-d Mini called the Twini on same design. Cooper crashed the prototype and nearly killed himself. End of project.
So these ideas ain’t new. No one stopped buying Minis because they had different versions. On the contrary. Issigonis did the same for his previous design the Morris Minor which also had these derivatives except Moke.
The question is; How much bigger in size should MINI become before it is a MIDI or MAXI?
Dave Mac Mini,
Right or wrong, brand identification is a big part of car purchasing decisions, such as the Mini smaller is better philosophy. Obviously, the mini is not the greenest car on the road, but some Mini owners had environmental concerns with the SUV bandwagon that manufactures jumped on with apparent malice for the environment. Of course Mini is a BMW brand and splitting hairs over Mini/BMW manufacturing is a little silly. I personally would greatly prefer Mini expand the diesel product line or pursue electric rather than the bizarre niche market for an off-roading Mini. Petsounds represents a portion of Mini market that may be lost with a disconcerting trend away from the small. I don’t think you should underestimate the hatred of the SUV (large or small) among some Mini enthusiasts and this is not at all similar to a preference for coupes over convertibles. Hatred isn’t necessarily rational, but it is a strong motivator.
Dave, I hear what your saying. The reason for my view is that Mini has years worth of negative anti-suv campaigning which really struck a cord with me. I live in a typical town in the US, I see literally hundreds if not thousands of small SUVs everyday. To me this is Mini stepping into what is already a very over crowded market in defiance of their own conviction about the wastefulness about SUV’s. The funny part is what has sold so many Mini’s to this point is that the product being offered was really in a class of its own, so now they are going to spend a huge amount of resources building something that blends in with any number of other manufactures. To me this is a horrible business stance, developing something that will never be more than a tiny niche of the market is going to pull a large amount of the resources that could be spent on developing another product that truly stands alone. I for one will never consider any beefier version of the Clubman with 4 doors a Mini. Its tough but it seems that every car we are seeing from Mini is growing ever larger. Give it a decade and maybe Mini can start producing buses 😉
!!!Old Mini People!!! Watch it there, buster! 😉
All in all, I’ve no objection to a somewhat-off-road MINI, as long as it keys off the word “mini”. We aren’t gonna have another Moke, or even an Ant, but in today’s market it’s futile to rant & rave about whether a brand can survive as a one-note company. We can’t go back to the original 10-footer, or even the Traveller, as safety laws would preclude that right off the bat. Whatever comes off line will be dictated by that simple fact, and practically speaking, the MINI is about as small a vehicle you could pack all its present features into. I personally was hoping for something along the lines of the old ‘Zuke LJ series of small 4-bys, which had that smaller-is-better meme, but a slightly beefed-up Clubbie would suffice, if I was so inclined. The designation SUV could possibly apply only in some hazy way, as the general public seems to see that appellation as reserved for mid- to large vehicles, in my opinion, so MINI has to come up with a catchy new hook – no more than 3 letters and not easily scatological in translation, (I remember when Brabham’s Motor Racing Development was initialed in France – MRD don’t work too well àFrançais, trust me), so get off the dime there at Oxford and come up with one, or someone else might. Oh, and no fuggly front-ends – I’ve had my fill of those from other makers lately.
YYYYYYYYYYYYeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 Sign me up!
Long enough to enter in the ralleys, and awd will make it a competitor!!! Yes! A subie, Mitsu killer! Just what we need! FWD made it a winner, now that technology has evolved, AWD is what the doctor ordered.
I just hope this doesn’t take the form of a Brat!
Petsounds and Jon, if you were looking for a enviro friendly car why not a hybrid or a Electric car? I know someone who turned an old rabbit into a electric car.
The Mini was always a giant killer, that’s what it’s history is. and Gregw has it absolutely right. Know your history.
Vanwall, MRD that is pretty funny! Just like the Chevy NoVa in Mexico. I saw one in argentina, it just said Chevrolet on it. The owner had never heard of a Nova, but he loved his Chevrolet! ha!
My leaning towards small cars isn’t as much about the environment but rather that the entire country shares one common problem. SUV believe safety comes from being the biggest, the sad fact is this move to ever larger vehicles are responsible for a large number of deaths each year from a 5k lb lumbering SUV runs into “normal” sized vehicles. As for it being a rally vehicle I doubt that, I think they are leaning more at making a sub SUV just like any number of other manufactures. I am betting on something closer to the PT Cruiser with AWD. Any way you cut it I don’t support this move by Mini, not that it will matter a ounce to them. It will be a stake in the heart of my sense of community. This is somewhat of a betrayal to me, but then again I am sure BMW will do what it will do.
Jon, don’t get me wrong. I hate SUV’s with a passion. I would never buy one, even if it had a MINI badge on it. I really hope that the proposed vehicle is not an SUV. Something like a miniature Audi Allroad would be interesting. I used to drive an Audi Quattro sedan, and it was wonderful here in our Canadian winters, so an AWD MINI has some appeal. All I am saying is that if MINI did decide to make an SUV, that would not make me abandon the brand because I don’t like SUVs. I would just get another coupe and let the SUV lovers do their thing.
Mini should just stick to creating little cars (with the Clubman being the largest Mini) and build larger cars/SUVs under BMW (or another name(“Gigantic” maybe))…
Someone mentioned the MOKE as a precedent of Mini making different versions and how this follows that example. My MOKE is 3m long. This is the same length as the classic cooper. It was NOT bigger than a standard Mini. My MOKE actually has less ground clearance than my MINI. As far as I know, there has never been a production variant that has increased the ground clearance and increased the size other than the estate and vans. (Now there is an idea – how about a panel van!) The MOKE is a very lightweight vehicle – somehow I doubt this SUV will be.
I obviously won’t be buying a MINI SUV – no matter what it’s called, but I hope they DON’T call it the MOKE! I still want to see a miniMINI though. Not much bigger than the classic, but with some of the safety and features of the MINI, able to take corners with the slightest turn of the wheel… I can dream…
I can understand why Mini would want to build a small SUV (yawn) type vehicle; money, money, money.
What i hope is that once the AWD layout is complete, they can transplant it into a Cooper S & create a vehicle that i personally would trade my R53 on without a second thought.
Here’s hoping.
Why oh why do you guys think because its 4×4 it has to be bigger?. The Fiat Panda Sisley 4×4 was the same size and had a great AWD system for a Fiat !!, the rest of the car was a Panda and quickly fell apart, but it proved it could be done in a small package.
I’ve been using my ’06 MCS as a MINI SUV ever since I bought it, which it has managed to do quite admirably. Two kayaks and a bike on the roof rack with all the camping and kayaking gear I needed for my wife and myself to spend a weekend in the mountains, and we still had room to spare. The best part of it is that I didn’t have to sacrifice that fantastic MINI handling or any of the get-up-and-go either. We were passing Honda Elements (laboring up the mountain highways) as if they were going backwards!
The only problem was negotiating some of the roads/trails to get to the rivers for paddling. The MCS doesn’t have enough clearance to handle the seriously scary one-lane rock-slide dirt tracks chiseled into the mountainsides leading to the best whitewater put-ins.
I’m all for the beefed-up MINI. I don’t believe it will dilute the MINI brand as long as it stays true to the MINI size, handling and style, and I’ll be in line to get one as soon as they hit the market!
I think it wood^nt be much pretty one. Maybe Fiat 500 made 500 rather best
Personally I would welcome the addition of the R59/60. Having the ability of an AWD with better ground clearance, and possibly a tad more cargo space would suit me to a “T”, as a second MINI.
As it stand now I have family members back home that I could never visit if driving my MINI. I would have to park out at the end of the road and hike in. The MINI just doesn’t have the clearance necessary to negotiate their driveway. As it is, I sometimes have problems with lack of clearance on the horrible roads up here in Maine.
I would love to have a car with the soul of a MINI, but the capability to load a small table, or similar sized object, and still be able to handle rough, unpaved roads. Give it soul, give it style, give it ability, give it great mileage, and keep it MINI. That would be my advice to the design team. I would still have to have a coupe or cabrio, but if this comes out we can finally become a MINI-only family.
Personally, I wish they’d just put the wings on the X3 and bring it out this year. Whoo hoo.
Having both the Clubman and this ‘beefier’ Clubman sounds rather redundant. As is the Clubman isn’t all that different from the standard Mini besides being stretched out a bit with an extra tiny door. If they wanted an additional, more utilitarian, model they should have just concentrated on this one.
We might as well get around to coming up with names for this new contraption…
I think we should call it something unique, since this type of vehicle has never been done before–how about “Subaru Forester”? Oh wait, that might already be taken…
With each new model, the Mini is looking less and less Mini like. If you compare the original Mini to its wagon version, they both look like a Mini–there is no doubt about the close relationship between the two; they appear to be siblings. They both look like Minis.
With the current generation, thats not the case. The Clubman looks more like a cousin than a sibling–looking at it, the best I can say is it sort of looks like a MINI. I’m not opposed to the Clubman, but the madness should stop there. Or maybe make the Clubman four wheel drive, then concentrate elsewhere.
A beefier version of the Clubman? Not liking it. Sounds like BMW has asked BALCO for help on the project. Maybe Barry Bonds will buy one…
I’m with Bwana. I can put 2 people, their luggage of four days, 2 bikes, helmets, and two sets of wheels in the back of the R53 JCW. And, just because it has all wheel drive doesn’t mean you will drive better in the snow. My 17″ snows do pretty well. Ground clearance is another story – if you can put a 4″ lift on the new MINI (moke/colorado), then that would be really cool. Hey, a new JCW kit for the dirt and rocks!
And I thought an AWD 3 series coupe was hard to swallow… Anyway want to take bets on how many years it’ll take the MINI Cooper to grow as long as the 3 series? The 5 series?
Mmmm honestly none of these developments surprises me in the least. In order for MINI to survive they need to become a full line car company instead of a boutique brand made up of enthusiasts and wannabe’s. And part of that strategy calls to offer models that some of the hardcore MINI enthusiasts will find questionnable or less palatable. If some of these folks are already up in arms about the R55 Clubman, imagine the outcry when MINI releases their first ever SUV? (Which the R60 appears to be headed in that direction).
I personally don’t like some of the “rumors” and chatter coming out of the powers that be at BMW/MINI. I do not like the design/product direction the company is taking, but I see where they are coming from and what needs to be done to justify MINI as a long term business case and ultimately ensure its survival in the fierce auto industry.
-Nigel
AWD is cool (except the fact that it’ll be on a not so mini MINI), but i would rather see DSG.
I want the MINI Moke Now ….that would be my next MINI purchase along with my dinan cooper”s” Now that would be a hella good time ..
Love the Moke, but this project they are talking about is a long long ways from being anything like the Moke. They are talking about a beefier Clubman with 4 doors, ie bigger/longer, with AWD which equals heavier, and finally giving it more clearance which is quite opposite of the Moke. I truly fear that what they are aiming at is a Micro SUV, which even at its lowest is going to a beefier “aka a bloated warthog” imo
I think the SUV/cross-over market is too diluted. There are so many on the roads that I don’t even know all their names anymore! When I hear talks about a “beefier” MINI, I’m just picturing that new Mazda thing, whatever it’s called.
I agree that they should just put AWD in the R56 and Clubman. I would support a roadster idea more because I think it fits better with the brand. I picture MINIs zooming around Europe and big cities on tight, small streets. I think that adapting to trends in the American markets that don’t really follow your brand’s initial direction will not work out as planned.
I think the way for MINI to succeed with something like this would be to come up with something SO different and SO unique that it creates it’s own niche in the market. Something to really draw people away from the countless other similar vehicles floating around. I guess I’ll just have to keep my fingers crossed….
Let’s face it, the market segment targeted by the Beefier Clubman are not the Mini loyalists, it’s the segment that do not read these columns.
To the loyalists, the news of an AWD beefier clubman is either neutral or a betrayal. Very few here will buy that thing, some will move away from the brand, while most will stick to the coupes. What most of the readers here want, I assume, is to have a fast, small Mini that has better handling and can handle some snow. Like an R56 S with AWD, that would be the perfect AWD car for most mini loyalists.
Having this news out and the little likelihood of ever getting an R56S with AWD, I will be moving on to a Lexus. At least they are not too big, not an SUV, with OK performance and can handle some snow.
This is funny. Mini needs to grow the brand or it will die. Now, as most of us already bought Minis, it’s pretty obvious that the current car hit our sweet spot and a different form of it probably wouldn’t. But we arleady bought. The marque needs variety to get those that DIDN”T buy to get one.
As far as the anti-SUV thing. People need more perspective. I actually have owned SUVs, and they are basically the modern station wagon. They’re shrinking into crossovers, because that’s a better design. But I gotta say that after the second kid came out, lots of trips that would have been Mini are now MDX.
Don’t hate the brand just because they’re trying to bring to the market that which the market will buy! Sure, we could keep it a small hatch/convertible, and leave sales numbers what they are. Then Mini would turn into Lotus, selling a few niche cars (not as small volumes for sure, but you get the idea).
Matt
Um, no. The SUV is not the modern station wagon. The modern station wagon is the Audi A4 Avant, Audi All-Road, or another brand’s take on that concept. I would wholeheartedly embrace a MINI with that design focus. The SUV is the modern-day 1970’s big boat car, whose single purpose is to cruise in a tank-like vehicle and assert their dominance and aggression over other cars on the road. You may say that it’s for the utility aspect, and some people do for that reason, but that’s the minority and more often than not people buy it to feel “safe” or empowered. And for drivers of smaller cars, it makes the roads more dangerous, not only due to their massive weight, but also because they block the view of the road ahead.
I’m not sure why anyone thinks me walking away from a brand for changing their brand philosophy is crazy. It’s called being an active consumer. Too many people just accept what they are given by companies. I speak with my wallet. If MINI follows through with production of an SUV variant, they will know that they paid a financial price for the decision by losing some of the early brand adopters.