MINI UK: “Clubdoor” Not Ideal for UK

DennisR53 Aug 17th, 2007 Link

Hmm…I saw the dismay results of side impact crash test of a BMW 5 series online…wondering out loud…about the rigidity of the sides of the “suicide-doors” of a Clubman…is it safe even with all the side airbags…in the event of a side collision by another smaller vehicle?…I know the 5 series have all the side airbags deployed during the test….but the dummy still sustained hip and lateral torso injuries…due more so to the strength of the impact and the armrest hitting the dummy…hmm…

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Day42 Aug 17th, 2007 Link

Phooey…it’s too small and awkward to please anyone, no matter what market it’s in! At least it looks good, overall!

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Nigel Aug 17th, 2007 Link

Watch an emergency “facelift” of the Clubman 6 months afer introduction.

Perhaps a “comfort door”on both sides?

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Bruce Aug 17th, 2007 Link

I think it is harsh calling the single rear door on the right side of the car a “flaw”. While it is not ideal for a RHD market, it should be remembered that is will be no more difficult gaining access to the rear seat of a Clubman (without using the 3rd door) than it is getting in the backseat of a regular MINI. Both front seats will still fold and slide forward.

From a LHD perspective, it could be argued that having the bonnet release in the the passenger footwell is “flawed”, but we’ve just learned to live with it.

And remember that not all parking is done on the street. Plenty of times people park in a driveway or in a car park where there is no nearside (curbside). With a RHD Clubman, having the door on the driver’s side could actually be more helpful and convenient in placing children in the car, especially children using a car seat. Driver and small children would simply enter on the same side of the vehicle.

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Sparkytim Aug 17th, 2007 Link

I’m a Brit, and the location of the clubdoor won’t be a deal-breaker for me. I generally park in car parks anyway, and if I am parking on the street I often park on the right so my driver’s door opens onto the pavement, so no problem there.

I can understand this might be a frustration for families who want a MINI, but I can’t see the surfer dudes and adventuring-types that MINI seem to be aiming this car at worrying too much about where the clubdoor is.

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Parcival Aug 17th, 2007 Link

I wouldn’t mind a half door on the driver’s side. They should have designed it like the RX-8 and put a suicide door on each side. I would have liked a half door on the driver’s side so I can put my laptop bag and lunchbox behind my seat. Right now I have to put them in the trunk or the passenger’s side footwell.

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Nathaniel Salzman Aug 18th, 2007 Link

A matching Clubdoor on the left side of the car has proved uneconomic to engineer because the fuel filler neck is in the way.

THAT’S your big engineering hurdle? I know MINI is running on thin margins, but especially given how much this will inconvenience the UK owners, seems like a different concession would have been more appropriate. Perhaps going to a regular hatch instead of the barn doors. Of course it’s easy to monday-morning-quarterback, but it seems like there would just have to be more to this than the sodding fuel filler neck.

Although I have a completely different objection to not having a clubdoor on both sides – I’m a whore for symmetry. ;-)

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Vanwall Aug 18th, 2007 Link

Yeah, I’m all for symmetry – there seems to be two of most of the important features I care to get my hands on in this world. Imagine Bettie Page without bilateral symmetry! Ack! My guess is the redesign wouldn’t be cheap, let alone cost effective, or they would’ve done it in a heartbeat. Most safety laws leave little room for placement of the filler neck, and if significant re-design was required, likely new crash testing would’ve come into play.

Yeah, it would’ve been nice to stick it at the rear lower corner like the classic’s, but then maybe it would’ve been better behind a drop-down hinged right rear tail light, but who would ever have done that? ;-) Safety, shmafety, let ‘em go without a crumple zone and we can have a one-shot lighter like the Pinto, yeah, huh? Reality will bite you on butt every time, tho. They had only so much to work with, and I guess the coin-toss for the fuel neck went in the left-hooker’s favor.

Someone will prolly eventually be sent to Siberia for it, but maybe next time they’ll ask a Brit before “oopsie, es ist zu spät”.

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Eelke Aug 18th, 2007 Link

I just find it a little ironic Mini would choose to inconvenience their supposed “home” market. I also find the filler neck story hard to believe (didn’t they use that excuse once before for something?) I hadn’t thought of the need for new crash testing, which is probably true, so by now it’s too late. Surely, however, they couldn’t reuse crash test results for the saloon models anyway, so there wouldn’t have been a problem if they re-engineered the location of the filler from the start.

Of course, the finished product would be more expensive with two doors, and having to factor in the extra door being on one or the other side of the car would complicate production (and complication = more cost). My vote is on cost, personally. Only after making these decisions, the choice on which side the door should go may have been influenced by the location of the filler neck, although I find it much more likely they simply looked to numbers of LHD vs. RHD sold.

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freeurtrees Aug 18th, 2007 Link

Oh what a horrible mistake- “pr” person should be put on holiday for a few month’s. The clubman’s door is a mild handicap for some folk’s but most understand it’s a mini not a mazda! I do wiSh BMW would listen to people outside the company who offer product development insight but lo the arrogance – I recommended a sliding door but never heard anything. And I’m still waiting on the new colors!!!!!!!!!!!!!It’s not that hard a few new colors!!!! Anyway the Clubman is one of the grooviest new vehicles on the market and I’m sure it will sell well- I’m considering one if I can get some new color choices. Maybe mystical blue or a silver white, phoenix bronze etc. I really don’t care what the names are as long as I don’t see it every few minutes driving up the street’s.

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AN Aug 18th, 2007 Link

Here’s an idea. If the club door doesnt work for you where it is, dont use it. You still get the extra room and the cool split rear doors.

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Doug Aug 18th, 2007 Link

I just find it a little ironic Mini would choose to inconvenience their supposed “home” market. I also find the filler neck story hard to believe (didn’t they use that excuse once before for something?)

Easy, people. Let’s not call the dogs on our beloved brand here. Not fully understanding a company’s decision doesn’t mean we should jump to conclusions about lack of faith in the overall goal: to make a MINI that’s uncompromisingly cool and unique. They’ve definitely done that with the Clubman — even if I’d like my rear pillars in the body color (which ain’t happening).

The internet is the world’s biggest complaint box, which is cool. But I’d rather read about these small issues than how the “Clubman’s design is ordinary.”

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Ed. Aug 18th, 2007 Link

FYI: in this morning’s LA Times (pg. C3) in the Business Section there’s a piece on the L.A. Auto Show moving up its date one month to Nov. 16 to 25, with a good amount of copy on the debut of the Clubman, including a photo.

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Ed. Aug 18th, 2007 Link

One more thing… Of note in the above article is a quote by the national sales manager of MINI USA as to why they chose L.A. over Detroit for the U.S. debut of the Clubman. He says Detroit represents 1% of national sales, and Southern California represents 13%, calling it a “numbers game.” Something tells me this is the bottom line when all is said and done, and this goes for many design/manufacturing decisions, as well.

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Jon Aug 18th, 2007 Link

I could understand those that live in RHD markets wanting the third door on the other side. I have no doubt what Mini did is look at the toatal number of Clubmans likely to be sold in LHD versus RHD markets and just bit the bullet and decided to put the door into place for its largest market. Seriously doubt we will ever see a dual suicide door Clubman, it would be a vast redesign of the car. They would have to go back to scratch to figure out to further stiffen the car and then figure out where to locate the gas refueling point.

Think the only way we will ever see a modification is if the numbers being sold in the RHD markets don’t reach their expected levels. I also guess that moving the door would be one of the very last options for bringing up their sales number in those markets.

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SB Aug 18th, 2007 Link

That’s the way it is in business. Sometimes to it’s ok to upset one customer if you can please more. The Clubman, imo, is aimed at the American mother. The ones that want to stop spending so much on gas yet not be inconvenienced by putting their child in a car seat. The passenger side is the logical side for a car seat in a MINI as most of the time no one is sitting on that side so front leg room is not an issue. With the door on the passenger side it makes it very convenient to place the child in the car seat.

As for the left hand drive countries. Maybe MINI felt the American market would provide more return on investment in the long run.

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BartMack Aug 18th, 2007 Link

Wasn’t the second gen MINI designed from scratch with the full intent of the new platform being the basis for several variants, the well known first of which being the ‘vert and the Clubman? My point being that they certainly had the Clubman in mind when the MINI redesign was even beginning, I don’t get how they did not forsee such a significant obstacle and engineer a solution from the get go.

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GregW Aug 18th, 2007 Link

See my previous posts – I told you so. RHD markets are gutted. Yeah Eelke and BartMack I agree. The Clubman had to be designed from scratch yet they chose the LHD configuration. While it’s ok for you folks in the USA and LHD markets, it’s not ideal for RHD – England included.

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GregW Aug 18th, 2007 Link

Ooops didn’t finish. When carrying passengers, adults or children, and dropping off to let someone out of the back, the driver usually stays in his seat. Watch this space – RHD markets sales WILL be affected by this, then as a result of poor sales in these markets, they will come up with a solution. All they gotta do is mirror image the rear panels – it’s not rocket science.

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Jon Aug 18th, 2007 Link

I am not saying that the RHD markets won’t be affected, rather the base fact is I am sure what Mini did is to look at the total sales and projected sales of the current Mini’s and the future Clubman and then to build the car for the largest market share which is LHD.

I can compleatly understand how this will affect those in RHD markets. The fact though if they would have set up a second Clubman for the RHD market it would have driven the development and production costs up, and the sales price. I am sure they have spent a lot of time and effort to figure out likely this will do for their markets long before the first production model was made.

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Aussom Aug 19th, 2007 Link

I live in Australia (RHD market) and prefer the suicide door on the driver’s side because of the inconvenience of opening and closing passenger side doors. When I drop the kids off, typically the parking is off-road, else I use common sense and wait for a break in the main traffic before letting children out of the RHS. At least with the suicide door, I can close up the driver’s door more so that it doesn’t stick way out into the path of oncoming traffic to let people out of the rear seats.

From a safety perspective – if the suicide door presents a structural weakness, I would much rather prefer it to be on the LHS because I’m the only person in the vehicle most of the time and would prefer stronger driver side protection.

I will still most likely buy a Clubman regardless of which side the suicide door is on.

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Timmee Aug 19th, 2007 Link

I can close up the driver’s door more so that it doesn’t stick way out into the path of oncoming traffic to let people out of the rear seats.

Nope. You will have to have the driver’s door open before you can open the Clubdoor, in the RHD version.

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Jon Aug 19th, 2007 Link

Think what Aussom was talking about is that the door will not need to be opened all the way in order to open the suicide.

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Roccorocket Aug 19th, 2007 Link

My England should join the rest of the word and switch to left hand drive. It’s long over due.

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Timmee Aug 19th, 2007 Link

Think what Aussom was talking about is that the door will not need to be opened all the way in order to open the suicide.

OK. Makes sense. Thanks Jon. Sorry Aussom.

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Aurel Aug 19th, 2007 Link

I am in the market for upgrading my R53 and I love the “looks” of the Clubman. However it does not look like there will be significant extra space or accesibility over the R56 … I mean in a “our family mightbe expanding” kind of way.

And in reality, if you are single or a couple … the R56 does just fine for hauling pretty much anything.

The extra door doesn’t seem to be much aid to anything significant in accesibility. Also I heard before that MINI IS NOT marketing the car for couples with small kids … so not sure why they are “apologizing” for the location of the door. Adults are more than capable of watching for traffic :)

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RB Aug 19th, 2007 Link

Roccorocket….

I was wondering how many countries use RHD as opposed to LHD? Seems more countries have RHD? Yes? No? Maybe I’m wrong.

Still hate the rear doors, as to the side door… I wonder if BMW did that for the states because most states have strict laws about passengers exiting on the street side? I also wonder about the added weight of the structural requirements of having another side door. The rear doors are just silly.

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Jon Aug 19th, 2007 Link

Here is s list of Right hand and left hand drive countries.

R Afghanistan R Albania R Algeria R American Samoa R Andorra R Angola L Anguilla L Antigua and Barbuda R Argentina R Armenia R Aruba L Australia R Austria R Azerbaijan L Bahamas R Bahrain L Bangladesh L Barbados R Belarus R Belgium R Belize R Benin L Bermuda L Bhutan R Bolivia R Bosnia and Herzegovina L Botswana R Brazil R British Indian Ocean Territory (Diego Garcia) L Brunei R Bulgaria R Burkina Faso R Burundi R Cambodia R Cameroon R Canada R Cape Verde L Cayman Islands R Central African Republic R Chad R Chile R China, People’s Republic of (Mainland China) L Christmas Island (Australia) L Cocos (Keeling) Islands (Australia) R Colombia R Comoros R Congo L Cook Islands R Costa Rica R Croatia R Cuba L Cyprus R Czech Republic R Denmark R Djibouti L Dominica R Dominican Republic L East Timor R Ecuador R Egypt R El Salvador R Equatorial Guinea R Eritrea R Estonia R Ethiopia L Falkland Islands R Faroe Islands (Denmark) L Fiji R Finland R France R French Guiana R French Polynesia R Gabon R Gambia, The R Gaza Strip R Georgia R Germany R Ghana R Gibraltar R Greece R Greenland L Grenada R Guadeloupe (French West Indies) R Guam R Guatemala L Guernsey (Channel Islands) R Guinea R Guinea-Bissau L Guyana R Haiti R Honduras L Hong Kong R Hungary R Iceland L India L Indonesia R Iran R Iraq L Ireland R Israel L Isle of Man R Italy R Ivory Coast L Jamaica L Japan L Jersey (Channel Islands) R Jordan R Kazakhstan L Kenya L Kiribati R Korea, Democratic People’s Republic of (North Korea) R Korea, Republic of (South Korea) R Kuwait R Kyrgyzstan R Laos R Latvia R Lebanon L Lesotho R Liberia R Libya R Liechtenstein R Lithuania R Luxembourg L Macau R Macedonia R Madagascar L Malawi L Malaysia L Maldives R Mali L Malta R Marshall Islands R Martinique (French West Indies) R Mauritania L Mauritius R Mayotte (France) R Mexico R Micronesia, Federated States of R Midway Islands (USA) R Moldova R Monaco R Mongolia L Montserrat R Morocco L Mozambique R Myanmar (Burma) L Namibia L Nauru L Nepal R Netherlands R Netherlands Antilles (Curacao, St. Maarten, St. Eustatius, Saba) R New Caledonia L New Zealand R Nicaragua R Niger R Nigeria L Niue L Norfolk Island (Australia) R Northern Mariana Islands (Saipan) R Norway R Oman L Pakistan R Palau R Panama L Papua New Guinea R Paraguay R Peru R Philippines L Pitcairn Islands (Britain) R Poland R Portugal R Puerto Rico R Qatar R Reunion R Romania R Russia R Rwanda R Saint Barth�emy (French West Indies) L Saint Helena L Saint Kitts and Nevis L Saint Lucia R Saint Martin (French West Indies) R Saint Pierre and Miquelon (France) L Saint Vincent and the Grenadines R Samoa R San Marino R Sao Tome e Principe R Saudi Arabia R Senegal L Seychelles R Sierra Leone L Singapore R Slovakia R Slovenia L Solomon Islands R Somalia (a part of Somalia trying to assert independence, Somaliland, also drives on the right) L South Africa R Spain L Sri Lanka R Sudan L Suriname R Svalbard (Norway) L Swaziland R Sweden R Switzerland R Syria R Taiwan R Tajikistan L Tanzania L Thailand R Togo L Tokelau (New Zealand) L Tonga L Trinidad and Tobago R Tunisia R Turkey R Turkmenistan L Turks and Caicos Islands L Tuvalu L Uganda R Ukraine R United Arab Emirates L United Kingdom R United States R Uruguay R Uzbekistan R Vanuatu R Venezuela R Vietnam L Virgin Islands (British) L Virgin Islands (US) R Wake Island (USA) R Wallis and Futuna Islands [Fr.] R West Bank R Western Sahara (ex Spanish Sahara) R Yemen R Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) R Zaire L Zambia L Zimbabwe

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GregW Aug 19th, 2007 Link

Hey Jon thanks for that excellent list. Now who asked the question how many countries are going to be affected? The question still hasn’t been answered – if you are designing a new car, why make it more suitable for LHD only? Now I’ll answer my own question – because if you are German you take the LHD option first. How come the Japanese can overcome these issues simply and cheaply?

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GregW Aug 19th, 2007 Link

Ooops – the listing seems to be flawed. What does L and R mean? Australia, Japan, New Zealand are RHD – yet the lists has them as L.

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Bruce Aug 19th, 2007 Link

I think R & L indicate which side of the road people drive on. Right side driving country typically has LHD cars and vice versa.

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RB Aug 20th, 2007 Link

USA – R?????? I don’t think so.

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Ron Arnold Aug 20th, 2007 Link

Nice job on the list. That data would be more valuable if grouped by R or L and then listed in # of auto sales overall and MINI sales each. A further divide would be listing greater # of potential automotive consumers like California vs. Tonga, etc.

I’ve said it before, but the Detroit show is an INTERNATIONAL show, with 6000 journalists from around the world. It’s a side benefit that they open it up to the locals after the media days, but what’s important about the NAIAS is not local sales, it’s international exposure. LA, New Yourk and Chicago are awesome shows, but people who count local sales are not “getting” the big picture of a show like NAIAS, sorry.

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blalor Aug 20th, 2007 Link

The list looks like it’s L == left side of the road, R == right side of the road. That jibes with the UK and US. As for totals, it’s far closer than I ever imagined: Right side of the road is 166 countries, left side of the road 74. Still seems like it’d make much more sense financially to just switch to a single standard…

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Jon Aug 20th, 2007 Link

The list I provided is marked for which side of the road these countries drive on.

If you cross reference the list with the countries Mini sells in it gives a little clearer picture.

15 of the countries are RHD, 37 are LHD

While there are several large LHD markets the sheer volume of RHD markets outweighs the LHD market. On a geographical basis of course this means the British Isles are affected, most of the Pacific Rim countries affected by this also. as are a few countries in the Mediterranean. However RHD dominate mainland Europe, and Eurasia (the former Soviet Union and China), also all of the America’s. This explains pretty well why Mini made the choices they did. Hopefully the sales will be great enough to convince them that there is a reason to try to figure something out for the LHD markets.

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RB Aug 21st, 2007 Link

OK, now that makes sense, shoulda thought of that.

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Nigel Aug 21st, 2007 Link

Still a pretty bad decision. The upcoming fallout from the automotive press is going to plae in comparison to the heat BMW had to endure when the uber-Banglarized 7-Series sedan was launched back in 2002.

Mark my words… MINI will order an “emergency” facelift of the Clubman 1-2 years after initial launch to counter attack press criticism and sagging sales.

Who will be affected after all is said and done? The initial batch of customers that purchased the Clubman with one “comfort door” that now will have a prematurely obsolete car with less than ideal residuals.

As much as I like the R55 bad decisions made by parent company need to be called out for what they are.

At least MINI UK’s PR has had the cojones to come out and admit that the rear door’s placement, after all, was a mistake. How bad it is? We will not know until after the car is out in the market.

An Irish auto journalist called MINI’s decision to place the rear door on the driver’s side of RHD Clubmans “Sheer arrogance” that flies on the face of the British history and origin of this car.

Could not agree more.

This will be a disaster. I often wonder who is approving these out of whack decisions up in Munich..

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GregW Aug 21st, 2007 Link

Recent post on Mini2.com; “In a review of the Peugeot 207 SW John Simister, writing for the Irish Independent has been heavily critical of the new MINI Clubman and it’s one sided suicide door, or Club Door, dismissing the new Clubman as competition for the Peugeot Estate by stating;

..that car [the MINI Clubman] is already fatally flawed because the side that has two passenger doors is the right-hand side, even on right-hand drive cars. For a car built in the UK, and inspired by a British past, this smacks of breathtaking arrogance.”

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Jon Aug 23rd, 2007 Link

I can totally understand the RHD markets like Ireland being unhappy, however I have to say that John Simister rather missed an important thing, he is unhappy because a car built in the UK is not optimized for the UK. On the base this is a logical position, however I think he is a ways from understanding international manufacturing.

While its true that the original Mini designed itself primarily for the UK market BMW/Mini would completely fail if they tried this today. Every day manufactures around the world produce items that may or may not be optimized for their own countries, as soon as your looking at selling on the global market it changes many things. The base fact is Mini’s are sold in 52 countries around the world, so as hard to take in the RHD markets I can completely understand why Mini made the choices it did.

I do wonder if Mr. Simister would be any happier if the Clubman was sold for quite a bit more than it will be to offset the development of a platform for the RHD markets alone? Imperfect solutions are sadly nothing new, I just hope that the Clubman sells well enough for BMW to address the RHD markets legitimate concerns.

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