Autocar Reviews the JCW Works S

robble Sep 17th, 2007 Link

They are supposed to be reviewing a JCW and they don’t like the sport button. I can’t listen to anything else they say. =(

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ravenwood Sep 17th, 2007 Link

Quite the contrary opinion than I have seen in reviews thus far. In my industry, when going for the middle ground, you drop the top and you drop the bottom than average from there. So for me, Autocar review is simply irrelevant.

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Gabe Sep 17th, 2007 Link

They are supposed to be reviewing a JCW and they don’t like the sport button. I can’t listen to anything else they say. =(

As someone who’s seen a little too much of the automotive press, you’d be shocked to know that quite a few reporters aren’t what we’d call enthusiasts. This guy seems to fit in that camp.

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Jay Sep 17th, 2007 Link

Feelsome? WTF? Don’t think i’ve ever heard anyone say that.

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greg Sep 17th, 2007 Link

I haven’t gotten mine or driven one yet so I can’t argue first hand. However, I use Gabe’s review as well as the GP owner’s review as a base against other writers. If you don’t like the car before you even drive it you can’t give an unbiased opinion.

Did this car have the suspension too?

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Alan Smithee Sep 17th, 2007 Link

They are supposed to be reviewing a JCW and they don’t like the sport button. I can’t listen to anything else they say. =(

As someone who’s seen a little too much of the automotive press, you’d be shocked to know that quite a few reporters aren’t what we’d call enthusiasts. This guy seems to fit in that camp.

‘Sport’ buttons that artificially increase throttle response are not necessarily appreciated by all “enthusiasts”. Many, including myself and everybody I’ve discussed them with at Porsche and BMW club track events, consider them useless gimmicks that do not lend themselves to smooth, controlled throttle application at the limit exiting a turn.

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MINBI Vanilli Sep 17th, 2007 Link

“‘Sport’ buttons that artificially increase throttle response are not necessarily appreciated by all “enthusiasts”. Many, including myself and everybody I’ve discussed them with at Porsche and BMW club track events, consider them useless gimmicks that do not lend themselves to smooth, controlled throttle application at the limit exiting a turn.”

WHA??!!! Are not all modern engines managed on the software level at some point? so no matter if an engine has the sport button engaged or not (or for that matter has one at all) the software (ECU) plays a major role in the performance of the engine. All the sport button does is alters the engine software for increased performance, it doesnt ADD software control to the engine that it didnt have it before.

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Jimny Crockett Sep 17th, 2007 Link

I think by now the message is clear. The 2007 MINI did not meet the expectations of many enthusiasts and automotive journalists. It seems regardless of the mechanical and cosmetic upgardes , the verdict remains mixed. Success on the track may help to a degree to generate greater acquiesence, but fundamentally one cannot deny the specter of uncertainty that continues to dilute the heretofore tremendous and well-deserved enthusiasm. And although we cannot expect to go back to the past, we can hopefully anticiapte a more promising iteration in the future.

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Cordwainer Bird Sep 17th, 2007 Link

Hmmm, Alan, are you disavowing your own comment?

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greg Sep 17th, 2007 Link

My ‘03 Z-4 3.0 AND my ‘06 Cayman S both had “sports” buttons. And on the Porsche it was a pricey option (sports chrono package).

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Alan Smithee Sep 17th, 2007 Link

All the sport button does is alters the engine software for increased performance…

Absolutely not true. Performance as defined by the maximum horsepower produced by the motor is not altered with a ’sport’ button. Flat out is flat out regardless if the ’sport’ mode is engaged. What it does is increase throttle response, which as I explained above is not necessarily a good thing, and therefore not universally appreciated by “enthusiasts”.

If you like it, that’s great…but don’t assume those that don’t aren’t “enthusiasts”.

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Revhed Sep 17th, 2007 Link

and is meant to make the steering more direct, but simply makes it heavier and less feelsome

I’m yet to be convinced by the Sports button – it certainly makes the steering heavier but I too can’t feel it being more ‘direct’ – although I wouldn’t say it’s less feelsome, just has a different feel.

Whatever the mode, I still prefer the steering of the R53

you’d be shocked to know that quite a few reporters aren’t what we’d call enthusiasts. This guy seems to fit in that camp.

His profile on the Autocar website seems to indicate otherwise – His current drives are a Mazda 3 MPS (Mazdaspeed3), WRX and Elise

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Gabe Sep 17th, 2007 Link

WHA??!!! Are not all modern engines managed on the software level at some point? so no matter if an engine has the sport button engaged or not (or for that matter has one at all) the software (ECU) plays a major role in the performance of the engine. All the sport button does is alters the engine software for increased performance, it doesnt ADD software control to the engine that it didnt have it before.

Bingo. Throttle response has to be artificially managed in a drive by wire car. The sport button is there to allow for two different modes of throttle engagement and steering weight. It’s an ideal solution for different driving environments. My only wish was that an owner could program which state (on or off) was default.

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bavarian racing green Sep 17th, 2007 Link

…oh, smithee…

…your false name, though it’s original intent was clever, really just discredits the very opinion you place after it…

…folks only used that pseudonym so they didn’t have to be held accountable for the rubbish they were so ashamed of but obviously responsible for…

…but i think that’s what mr. bird was alluding to…

…oh, well…

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Alan Smithee Sep 17th, 2007 Link

Throttle response has to be artificially managed in a drive by wire car.

Obviously. However, the default of DBW cars with ’sport’ buttons is designed to mimic what most consider conventional throttle travel, with ’sport’ artificially increasing response to make a car feel faster. There is no performance benefit.

Nor is there a performance benefit with heavier steering. In fact, racers would consider both a detriment.

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Gabe Sep 17th, 2007 Link

Obviously. However, the default of DBW cars with ’sport’ buttons is designed to mimic what most consider conventional throttle travel, with ’sport’ artificially increasing response to make a car feel faster. There is no performance benefit.

There is no performance benefit to quicker throttle response? Wow, I can’t even wrap my head around that sentence.

Nor is there a performance benefit with heavier steering. In fact, racers would consider both a detriment.

Steering with a correct weight balance allows for generally smoother inputs and less time lost in transitions. Not to even mention the drivability benefits. Again I’m having a hard time understanding your rational with these statements.

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Alan Smithee Sep 18th, 2007 Link

With all due respect, Gabe…I realize this is your house…but there is no performance benefit to having the throttle re-mapped so that all of the power is summonsed within the first fraction of pedal travel. If you want full throttle, stomp on the pedal, and it’s there regardless of the mapping.

As I said in my first post above, hyper-quick throttle response is not what you want at the limit of adhesion while exiting a turn and feeding in throttle (preferably on the track…nobody should be at the limit on public streets). I’m surprised you can’t “wrap your head around” that concept…it’s pretty basic track stuff, especially in a front-drive car like the Mini.

As for steering, of course you want comfortable weighting, but heavier is not necessarily “correct”, and weight isn’t as important as feedback. The writer of the article felt that the sport button sacrificed some feedback for heft…a fair assessment. Again, using the example of exiting a turn at the limit, feedback is crucial to a fast and safe exit, with lighter steering preferred to fine tune your line…too much effort can lead to too much steering input.

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Gabe Sep 18th, 2007 Link

I realize this is your house…but there is no performance benefit to having the throttle re-mapped so that all of the power is summonsed within the first fraction of pedal travel.

But that’s not what is happening with the sport button. It is still gradual, it’s just more inline with a typical sports car in throttle response.

As for steering, of course you want comfortable weighting, but heavier is not necessarily “correct”, and weight isn’t as important as feedback. The writer of the article felt that the sport button sacrificed some feedback for heft…a fair assessment.

Again if that was actually happening with the steering I’d understand. But the increased weight doesn’t sacrifice any feedback.

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iNomis Sep 18th, 2007 Link

It would be interesting to see the “mapping” of the two throttle modes. I would say the “sport” mode throttle mapping is more like most new cars not just sports cars. I think the standard mode is actually detuned from what a normal throttle would do. In my quick testing this morning it seems that only the first part (1/4 if that much) of the throttle is different. After that it’s very close to the same. It’s very subtle sometimes. I parked and revved to a constant 2000RPM, then quickly floored and released the pedal. If anything the non-sport mode got to a higher RPM which is not what I expected. At 5000 RPM in 2nd, punching the throttle made no noticeable difference. “Sport” mode may make it a bit easier to heel/toe downshift with the quicker revs just off idle so I could see that as a performance advantage for some. Otherwise in a performance situation I don’t think either would make any difference.

The standard steering is good enough and the sport steering heavy enough to be a preference with no advantage to either. There’s a unique ideal weighting and feedback for everyone. With the electric power steering system I’m not sure those have to work against each other though typically they do. Maybe the lack of feedback by the reviewer was a too quick an assessment based on his previous experiences? It doesn’t sound like the reviewer was all that rigorous in comparing the sport button on and off.

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cct1 Sep 18th, 2007 Link

From my understanding of the Sport Button, it does very little for the car–there was an article floating around somewhere where there was no difference in lap times with the button on or off, with experienced drivers behind the wheel. I haven’t tracked an R56, so I have no idea if this is true or not, but my suspicion is that it probably does very little to make the car any faster, having driven the R56 (but again, not on the track).

Still waiting on the JCW stage II, that might be my next car…

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greg Sep 18th, 2007 Link

Wow! What a can of (off topic) worms. Hey why the debate? R56 HAS a sport button. Like it or not it’s not going away so press it and drive,sheesh!

What we should be seeing here are comments of who’s gonna shell out the $ for an order or upgrade. I did, Gabe did, but all I hear from MF land is crickets.

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Cordwainer Bird Sep 18th, 2007 Link

I was wondering if any one else would get it. Good for you BRG.

Havingowned an MC, an MCS and a GP and having driven both an R56 and an R56 S with the sport button endgaged & disengaged, I have to agree with Gabe. The sport button isn’t an instant on type of deal. It tightens up the steering and “accelerates” the throttle response. It brings the smoothed out & presumably more fuel efficient R56 a more aggressive feel. My impression — “off” mode gives the R56 85% or so of the R53 responsiveness, “on” takes it up to 95% or so.

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cct1 Sep 18th, 2007 Link

Greg, as for the money, JCW has never been a big “bang for the buck” (with the possible exception of the suspension upgrade), so I doubt there will be a serious discussion on this (I’m not critcizing the JCW; I have it on my R53, and that was serious price gouge).

The JCW does give you warranty coverage and a well integrated package; on the R53 it was smoother than any other aftermarket concoction, but at a substantially higher price. I suspect the same will be true on the R56. I’ve seen horror stories on NAM of people tweaking their cars with poorly thought out and poorly integrated mods to the point where they actually made the engine performance worse than a standard S, so with any mod you have to be careful and know what you’re doing (there are a few easy no-brainers–reduction pulley and exhaust come to mind–but beyond that you have to be a bit more careful). Personally I like the security of the JCW route, but many don’t want to pay the premium, and thats understandable.

This will be a much more interesting discussion when more aftermarket tuning options are available for the R56….

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Fussner Sep 18th, 2007 Link

If there is no performance benifit from having the sport button on then why do you get 20 lbs/torq extra when you turn it on as opposed to having it off? MINI shows a difference in figures with it on and with it off and so have many other dyno tests.

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greg Sep 18th, 2007 Link

No doubt the aftermarket offers more “bang for the buck”. However, I don’t trust the concept of a “Frankenstein” Mini that has parts that are not perfect together and may go south taking the warranty with it.

Besides, I’m no gearhead. With JCW theres no worry and there’s a bit of prestige to that badge as well as better resale.

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Alan Smithee Sep 18th, 2007 Link

If there is no performance benifit from having the sport button on then why do you get 20 lbs/torq extra when you turn it on as opposed to having it off? MINI shows a difference in figures with it on and with it off and so have many other dyno tests.

You don’t. If you’re referring to the “overboost” feature, it has nothing to do with the ’sport’ button.

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Fussner Sep 18th, 2007 Link

The sport button activates the overboost feature though, does it not?

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cct1 Sep 19th, 2007 Link

No, the overboost is there regardless of the status of the sport button. I don’t know if it kicks in any differently with the sport button on, but its there in either mode.

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