VW & audi (the leaders in tdi tech) will have their next gen carb compliant tdi’s out later this year. honda will have some out for ‘09. i’d see bmw coming in on their heels.

the next gen tdi’s will be a very nice improvement in mpg. they just need a little more time to develop tech to reduce n2 via intake a/f mixture control & for urea catalysts to get more efficient. and, keep costs under control.

one aspect i’m not familiar with is how would the tdi motors effect the fun factor around the track. some vw/audi drivers out there would have to chime in on that.

anyone else see that the US smart car is rated 33/40? that’s ludicrous. it’d have to get 70mpg for me to even consider a test drive.

Toyota must be laughing their asses off..

to me that means all electric w/ solar/nuke energy down the road. to others that means h2.

one always has to take into acct total life cycle analysis in the production of a vehicle. but, that also has to be coupled w/ well/field-to-wheels analysis for the fuel source & its needed distribution infrastructure.

it’s hard to argue against the effeciency gains you see w/ hybrids in large vehicles–there are some huge mpg improvements that vastly outweigh the hybrid raw material cost/complexity/enviro impacts. in smaller cars (like a prius) the benefit is certainly less & becomes questionable depending on its use–i.e., is it a city car or a highway car, is it driven easily or aggressively?

in the end, it’s not which tech should be chosen over all others, it’s what mix of technologies should be chosen to specifically suit certain vehicles for different uses.

b/c of what’s been discussed we can see that’s a very tough balancing act for mini–a small car w/ a large demographic of customers, each w/ their own use.

if they could somehow fit a diesel hybrid in there, that’d be great. but really, we need the next generation of batt, super cap tech to come out to make that happen.

certainly can’t fault them for putting a highly efficient gas motor in the r56 in the meantime, though.

…nothing personal, but when people claim to know how anything ‘is’, it is usually because they are selling something…

…besides my opinion needs little defense, it’s weak at best (hell i typed it on my wii over lunch)…

…so a weak study makes for an appropriate shield (flawed assumptions that i do understand aside, the point of referencing that article was merely to point to the inherent flaw in the globally efficiency-limiting overly-complicated design of hybrids)…

…to me hybrids rank right up there with the atkins diet and communism as some of the biggest scams pulled off in modern history…

…the larger point, which is not mine and needs no defense, is that especially in the conservation of energy, the simplest answer should be given the most consideration…

…which ironically is where we agree…

each of us would also have a more expensive cost of goods basket, since the trucking industry would have to pay more for clean fuel & from increased demand as it became more popular in the non-commercial transportation sector.

b/c of all the needed systems, you can’t really do a hybrid on a car as small as a mini. so, that leaves us at an all electric mini–much like a tesla. but, even a tesla has a huge battery pack, is a decent bit smaller & lighter, and still only gets 200-250mi on a charge–something that would never work w/ all the mini roadtrips we all like to take.

unfortunately, it’s kind of a catch-22 on a car as small as a mini. you can’t have huge urea tanks, and you can’t have all the hybrid subsystems b/c battery packs are so huge. you’d think you could make it super efficient b/c of it’s size, but there’s just not enough room to make it happen w/ today’s tech. super capacitors, better batteries, etc have to happen to make hybrid systems smaller.

lastly, a lot of mini owners are already ‘green conscious’, hence the reason they bought a mini. me personally, i couldn’t find a smaller, more practical, sporty, lowest total cost of ownership vehicle, so here i am. i think a lot of us are the same way (and why we’re having this conversation).

so i agree, a green mini would only be applauded by the masses. but until diesel fuel gets cleaned up or energy storage gets better, the direct injection turbo in the r56 might be what we’re stuck with.

maybe we can get some cellulosic ethanol in between there, but in the end that’s still combustion. if you combust your fuel you’ll always end up w/ a lot of co2, regardless of the fuel.

unless that fuel is h2 (enter the h2 camp…). b/c of the reasons i’ve already mentioned (inefficiency of electrolyzing water, compressing h2 to 10kpsi, turning h2 into electricity through the fc stack or combusting it in an ICE, then finally sending the electricity to the motors), you have to greatly increase national solar/renewable/nuclear elec output just to break even w/ demand required for plug-in cars.

knowing how little of our current energy is renewable & how inefficient current solar tech is, that’s almost laughable. not to mention, the added raw material & industrial waste costs to build out that larger energy infrastructure–something that’s often forgotten by the h2 crowd.

yes, all electric cars have a lot of waste, too. we’d be stupid to stick 1000’s of laptop batteries into every car. that’s where moore’s law will come in a trump any advances in petro tech. electronics will become much more capable, cheaper, smaller, etc, much more quickly than any combustion or fuel cell tech could ever hope to keep up.

both the ICE & fuel cells have been around since the 1800s. the transistor, late 1940’s…

but, what do you guys think?

MF has been saying for a long time that there is more information coming. Just seems that they are holding this info close to their chest. Guess my big gripe is all the money being wastes on a SUV that could have pushed this development along. A high mileage Mini, heck everybody that I’ve spoken to about my Mini’s first statement is always “wow that must get really good mileage”. I think they could bring this into the brand without doing anything but improving the brand image. Instead we get the BMW/Mini’s oxymoron a Mini SUV.

How is MINI not the perfect platform to lead the way in fuel efficent cars as has been stated above. I agree that if they create something truly special, the brand won’t be diluted it will be strengthened. zm, if you were to design a ‘green’ MINI, how would you power it, would it be alot lighter than the R56, would it be any smaller ? I’m interested to hear your views because I believe that we can have something that is fuel efficient, safe, desirable and still alot of fun.

it makes no sense to introduce the electrical inefficiency of hydrolysis, coupled w/ the low power density of h2 (which requires a lot of energy to compress it to 10,000psi to get decent vehicle range). take that electricity and put it directly to electromotive use in an electric car.

we already have an extensive electric car power grid–the plugs in your garage. it’ll be easier to put ‘charging stations’ for street parking in an urban areas rather than building h2 fuel stations for everyone to use.

btw, the solar fueling stations that honda are using to refuel their leased h2 cars take over a week to produce enough h2 & then enough energy to compress it (the real energy hog) for one tank of ‘gas’.

and, if you understood the absurd assumptions the CNW report you mentioned used (h3 vs prius), you’d be appalled that you quoted it to defend your point.

i have no allegiances except what’s best for the environment, while being technically feasible & not killing our economy. when there’s something better than diesel hybrids & all electric, i’ll jump ship. h2 & biofuels are not those techs.

…come now, that is a bit presumptuous…

…hydrogen is quite viable to produce via hydrolysis from electricity from windmills, hydro, and solar sources…

…plus, current tech allows for a relatively easy conversion for us and more populous economies like india and china…

…to me this makes far more sense than going long term electric only as people forget that an electric car is not green if it eats up unnecessary energy and resources to produce…

…as i again reference energy study showing that currently an H3 is greener than a prius for the first 6 years of ownership, due to much higher resources required for higher-tech components…

…the old occam’s razor strikes again…

IMHO, I disagree. It will make a lot of sense once the public is ready again to embrace an efficient technology to manufacture it. It is clean, safe, and reliable. Not to mention relatively easy to do as a conversion. This efficient source? Nuclear. You mentioned it yourself. The only problem? “NIMBY”.

I am not opposed to electric cars – but am yet to see a practical prototype.

-all biofuels are a lost cause, except for cellulosic ethanol (you can thank the ag lobby for perpetuating ideas otherwise)

-h2 will never make sense from efficiency or fueling infrastructure standpoints (why electrolysize water when you can put that electricity directly to work in an electric car?)

what does makes sense are diesel hybrids in the short-term, esp if you use the diesel as a generator, not as a drive motor. although, we need the epa to raise diesel fuel quality standards to reduce smog emissions & the need for urea (will never happen b/c of the trucking & oil/gas lobbies. instead, we have high rates of asthma in urban children & cheap diesel. also keep in mind supply & demand effects on future diesel pricing.)

long-term: electric cars powered by solar cells or nuclear energy. just need battery tech to get better (and solar & nuke plants). anyone see that BYD nickel-iron hybrid at the detroit auto show? would like to get some more info on that…

if you want more details as to why the above is the case, leave a temp email & i’ll fill you in.

Further, while I agree that Hydrogen technology is the “real” long term solution for the future, we are still a good 10-15 years away before we see affordable mass produced hydrogen powered cars and the required support infrastructure to keep them running (Fueling stations, etc).

However, if I walk into a BMW showroom in the United States today, I won’t find a single alternate fuel vehicle offering. Not until the Diesel 3 series and X5 are both launch to market.

I am not a fan of the Hybrid vehicle camp. I think it is for all practical purposes, a bogus, overhyped and passe stop gap technology. Diesels offer a true cost effective alternative in my book.

If they overdo it we will have to change their name to GMW.