Yet More Diesel Talk
With the price of fuel at an all time high and consumers continually looking for ways to save on fuel costs, talk of the MINI Diesel rears its head once again. As noted here before, the costs of development in bringing the diesel MINI to the US would not be recouped by the estimated number of diesel MINI sales in the US. The new twist is that the estimates of how many diesels would potentially sell were done looking at $3/gallon fuel. Now that fuel prices in the US are between$4 and $5/gallon and projected to be $7/gallon by 2010 (WSJ – 6/26/08), the question of a diesel in the US, apparently, needs to be readdressed. The downside to this is that diesel is currently selling for almost 18 percent more than regular unleaded.
The challenge is squarely on the shoulders of marketing gurus to educate the public on the benefits, ease of use and maintenance of a diesel MINI. Most of us see it as simple math – 47-60 MPG (diesel) is better than 35-40 MPG (unleaded) even with 18 percent more cost at fill up. The 50 percent greater efficiency of the diesel wins every time. This has been discussed ad infinitum and nothing has changed about the facts of the situation. What is changing is consumer demand and if enough consumers demand a diesel MINI to offset development costs. It remains a possibility.
Granted, it’s an uphill battle and still a bit of a pipe dream of being able to buy and drive a diesel MINI in the US. So where does that leave MINI in relation to fuel economy? MINI executives have been quoted saying that 37 MPG is already great especially in a “performance” car. It seems of late that the fuel economy of the MINI is not *the* main selling point but a pleasant benefit on a premium, performance car. With recent sales spikes it seems that owners are weighing MPG a little more in their purchasing decisions. There are many other cars on the market that get similar MPG and are less expensive but the MINI capitalizes on the premium, performance aspects allowing consumers to justify the extra expense of a MINI because of the increased efficiency.
So it appears to be a fine line that MINI walks in an attempt to maintain the premium, performance moniker while maintaining the highest efficiency possible but staying away from the label “economy car”. A delicate dance indeed.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:
When dealer inventories are at an all-time low, production capacity is maxed-out and with the exchange rate hurting profit margins, where is the incentive in rushing to bring the ‘Dooper’ to the US?
I’m not saying the engineering shouldn’t be done, but I wouldn’t see it as a high priority.
Then there’s the matter of dealer service. VW has been selling diesels in the US for years (decades)… and yet VW dealers are widely regarded as the LAST place to take your TDI for service. No small amount of investment would be required by MINI dealers to train and equip their techs for servicing a small percentage of cars.
And there are issues that while individually minor, have enough of a cumulative effect that I can understand why MINI would be cautious…
I still believe there is a huge business case for the MINI “Dooper” in the United States. BMW took a huge risk with the MINI brand back in 2002, in an era where gas was still under $2/gal and the SUV was king of the road and sales charts. The risks associated with bringing the diesel model here pale in comparison to the ones BMW faced 6+ years ago when not only attempting to re-introduce a brand that have been absent from American roads for nearly 40 years, but also by creating a whole new segment known as the “premium small car”.
I have spoken to a couple of MINI dealers and they are eager to get their hands on the Dooper. The demand and interest for a vehicle like this clearly exists. $4/gal fuel has changed minds, perceptions, business plans, etc for ever in the American landscape. Perhaps at $2/gal gasoline there was no compelling incentive for MINIUSA to import the car but seeing their success with their gasoline powered line-up, the Dooper will solidify MINIs success here in ways not yet imagined.
What’s not to love about a vehicle that can get 55MPG (combined) on diesel fuel? A vehicle that drives better than a standard gasoline powered Cooper model? A vehicle that doesn’t have the complexity and issues (Batteries, weight, handling, etc) of hybrid vehicles? What’s not to love about a MINI that can easily trounce the Toyota Prius in the MPG wars? What’s not to love about a car that can probably be had cheaper than any hybrid?
The writing is clearly in the wall for MINI. In order to ensure their long term success and survival in the US, the “Dooper” has all of a sudden become a key component of that strategy. Keeping it as an “exotic” model for the American market is no longer a viable business decision.
America wants and needs the Dooper.
‘Nuff said.
They could just bring the Euro diesel to the States that don’t have to meet the stricter emmissions of Califonina. When the Legislators of those States that require CARB standards see the demand and economy for the diesel, maybe they will lessen the NOX requirements for cars in their states. The Euro Cooper D would pass the emissions standards for 44 of the 50 states, so why not bring it to those States.
50% greater efficiency vs. 20% increased cost of the fuel (around here) Question is, how ‘slow’ is this tho compared to the petrol MINI…? I think 0-60 in the 7 – 8 sec range to be minimum for today.
b>@s.m8o:</b Performance is almost exactly comparable to the R50. 0-60 ~8 sec. Friend of mine test drove one in the UK while he was there and commented to me that it drove exactly like my 05 Cooper, only more refined, as all the new models are.
Thanx aaron… then I’ll take a ragtop as a daily, to put less miles on my JCW but now am sorry I’ll be putting all the miles on it!
I believe I read several manufacturers would be introducing new diesel models to the U.S. market this year or next. If this is so, we may see diesels becoming more and more acceptible/marketable to U.S. buyers. Should something like this happen, the Cooper D would have a much easier time.
From what I’ve heard the Cooper D ‘s engine is very torquey (as was the One D)…it would probably be a very popular model for both performance and economy minded buyers.
Do the math… If you want to save money, then diesel is the way to go. I love my Cooper S. I like the fact that I can get a premium car, great looks with great gas mileage. I’d part with performance of the “S” for a “D” for double the mileage. The Co2 emissions of a Cooper D match that of a Prius. I’ve written to MINIUSA several times about this. If dealers are sold out of MINI’s, it would seem that the high price of gas has had more of an impact. I think if consumers seen these vehicles on the show room floor with gas mileage numbers of 50 – 67, then the cars would fly off the lots.
I just recently wrote to Mercedes asking why they don’t bring there “A” and “B” classes over here for they also are diesel and get up to 60 MPG. I believe there’s a big market for premium small cars. People like there big plush SUV’s, then they’d like a nice premium small car as well.
<blockquote>Ken Jul 30th, 2008 Link
Do the math… If you want to save money, then diesel is the way to go. </blockquote>
Unfortunately, this is not true. I <strong>am</strong> doing the math… I’ve tracked the ownership costs for my TDI since I bought it new. It has been a very expensive car to drive. And my car has been stone-reliabile as far as repairs go (basically zero) – it’s all maintenance, which has all been DIY, even. If I had to pay someone to keep this car maintained, I’d be seriously crying.
Modern diesels are very complex engines…
C4, I commend your passionate desire for a diesel MINI, but your reasoning is flawed. The business case has nothing to do with the viability of the Cooper D in the US market. It has to do with lack of production capacity.
How many of you own a diesel car? Ever lived with one? There are drawbacks to my TDI that make owning the car a serious annoyance at times.
Sure the dealers want diesel MINI’s… they want ANY cars they can get right now.
Mercedes is going to bring their A and B class models to the United States:
<a href="http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/28/mercedes-to-bring-a-and-b-class-to-america/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/28/mercedes-to-bring-a-and-b-class-to-america/</a>
If the car will sell, BMW will seek to have increased capacity in or outside of England.
Diesel cars are not for everyone, so are hybrids. What is your point anyway?
I think my question is… What are the downsides to diesel ownership?
Maintenance is less forgiving that most gas engines. Most of the time, I have to go to a VW dealer to buy oil for my TDI as only recently has the local Pep Boys started stocking the correct Castrol Syntec oil… and even then, they’re often out of stock.
Diesel is more difficult to find. 1 or out 5 stations? Fortunately, this has only been a problem for me once on a trip into the hills of West VA.
Diesel gets all over you when you pump it. A common complaint. I get around it by buying diesel in NJ.. where by law they pump it for you… also helps it’s cheaper than in PA.
Service can be more difficult, although OBD has made this easier. Granted, car diesels are not much different any more than their petrol kin, but there are still differences.
But as you said, diesels aren’t for everyone… and again, my point is less about whether or not there is a practical case to bring the car to the US, but whether or not there’s a viable business case to do so.
The TDI works for VW because it is one of the few cars their dealers can sell at or near MSRP with a good profit margin and without discounts, haggling or other profit killers.
MINI is already selling nearly every car they bring here at MSRP, and that’s my point: We may need the diesel MINI, but MINI doesn’t need to sell them in the US market to make money.
We might see Cooper D’s here in limited numbers in non-CARB states to test the market, but I wouldn’t hold out much hope for a 50-state version until the next model when there may be able to design the car around those requirements.
Maybe you’re right and I’ll eat crowe… doesn’t really matter to me one way or another.
Problem with non-CARB cars is that they don’t sell in CA, or a couple of the North East states that follow CARB. If you look at the numbers of cars sold in the US, and the volume of Minis vs state, that’s a much larger percentage of the market than “just 6 states” implies.
Even when the Austrians make the R60, they will still be production capacity limited. Typically, the Ds cost more than the gas equivalents. Without the pricing incentive here that exist in Europe for diesel fuel, we’ll never hit the 50% diesel rate of car purchase that Europe sees. So now we’re talking tons of dev costs for selling what, 15k US spec diesels a year? Maybe 25k? With all the dev costs to spread over so few cars, the price delta would have to be much higher than for cars with much larger production volumes. So then you get to the payback equation, how much time does it take for the fuel savings to pay for the difference in car costs? I don’t know, but it’s pretty important to figure this out. Another way to think about it is you have to drive enough miles per month for the gas savings to equal the monthly loan delta to be a cost saver, but I fear that already takes more math than the average US citizen is capable of….
I’d love to see it come here, but it seems that the most likely scenario is if the R60 sharing the X1 platform gets a 50 state D powertrain that we haven’t seen yet. For the R<60…. I don’t know, but I’d guess we’d have to wait for the NEXT chassis redesign.
Matt
I agree completely that as long as MINI is sold out of cars, and the plant is running 24/7, they won’t consider a diesel for the US market until the next generation.
Unlike MB, BMW has been firm regarding selling all of their vehicles in all 50 states.
Regarding downsides to diesel ownership, however, I completely disagree. My MB CDI has the same maintenance schedule as the gas version, with the exception of a $25 fuel filter needing replacement every 2 years. It uses the same Mobil 1 oil (actually less of it) as the gas version, therefore maintenance cost differences are negligible. In two years I have never spilled a drop of fuel on myself; pumping it is no different than pumping gasoline. Yes, the handle can be grimy, but so can a gasoline pump handle…carry paper towels for the 24 times a year you need to use a pump (12,000 annual miles / 500 mile range). And diesel pumps can be found anywhere there are commercial vehicles…another non-issue.
If MINI USA imports diesel version, then they will have to train all the MINI technicians (granted only the engine area) and also supply all dealers with special tools. These are extra costs to dealer and importer.
Are there any figures available for performance of diesel over petrol cars?
In my experience of driving a previous R50 diesel, it was noisy and slow revving.
Most importantly, it is not a Cooper S version – you only get one choice of engine.
At current exchange rates, the cost premium for diesel would be larger than what exists in Europe. Plus, with a max’d out factory for the WORLD, MINI won’t divert extra production to the USA where the margins must be slim given a $2 to the pound rate. They’re quoted as saying the USA will have an extra 2-3k cars this year, but those will all be sold quickly too.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d buy a diesel MINI, but for now the petrols here are outstanding, if we get stop-start in the next couple of years it’ll be even better, and if the next gen can shed a few pounds, we’ll be all set in terms of endearing performance and continued efficiency.
i want it , bring it here and we will buy it! simple. also build minis in the states and add to world production.
Some random thoughts…
Bringing the Dooper here would help pad BMW’s CAFE rating which they’ve already indicated is in jeopardy with the new standards.
The Dooper isn’t about 0-60. It’s about 50-70 mph. In those speed ranges with the amount of twist the engine has, it can about hang with the MCS. I don’t dump the clutch at stoplights. I do pass folks on the road without downshifting.
I buy my TDI oil in quantity when I order it. Qualified sources are Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck Oil, Delvac 1, Texaco Ursa Premium, depending on vintage of engine (mine’s an ALH).
The only time I had problems finding diesel in the past 125k miles was recently at Myrtle Beach when my usual station had it’s pump broken. I simply stopped by a fire station, asked where they got fuel, and they directed me to a pump a mile down the road. With 40 mpg city, when the low fuel light came on, I’m still good for 80 miles. I figure I can find a pump by then. I’ve never run out of fuel in my TDI.
Regarding the likely price increase of a Dooper relative to an MC, I should point out that the government just announced a $1300 tax incentive with the new 2009 VW Jetta TDI. I would expect a similar incentive for the Mini, possibly better with it’s economy.
In my course of ownership I’ve had to replace the glow plug harness once… $20. The glow plugs are still going strong, with minimal wait in the winter. On a typical gasser I used to replace spark plug wires more frequently (less of an issue now with coil packs), and certainly spark plugs. I replaced the timing belt once as well as the water pump since I had access to it. The only weak spot I had with the engine was the MAF sensor which was a widespread problem with Bosch. I replaced it with another brand that has been troublefree.
Regarding how to avoid diesel smell on hands, I use the paper towels at the fuel pump to avoid touching the nozzle.
Jared, none of those oils is approved for use in an ALH. Of course, that never seems to stop anyone… Nor are they available to me locally (I’m not blessed with one of those mythical Walmarts that stocks diesel oil…). For me, the VW dealer is cheaper and more convienent than purchasing in bulk online.
I’ve had to replace all 4 of the main glow plugs, but the harness is still OE. But I consder those wear items and not unexpected. Still on the OE MAF as well, although I believe it to be suspect…
The Mk IV seems to eat tires… I’m on my 6th set at 168K miles. And the front suspension was shot within a week of purchase. At least the front brakes are OE, although I’ll need to replace them next Spring. at the least the water pump in the TDI is easy to replace… when compared to a R53…
That is a good point about CAFE… which could play into offsetting the net cost of the car to BMW.
I hadn’t heard about tax incentives… but I’ve also paid little attention to the new TDI other than looking at one at the auto show.
If there is one positive to the prospect of a Cooper D, it’s that turbo diesels generally take mods very well with only a minimal impact on economy.
Avoid diesel smell by having someone else pump it… 😉 but seriously, avoidable or not, this bothers a lot of people enough to be a deal-breaker.
I love the idea of bringing the diesel to the US, but I’m not optimistic. I’m sure with the weak dollar that the profit margins are lower for the US spec cars when you factor in the transport costs particularly. As long as production is maxed and the profit margin in the US is low, I suspect there is not a big incentive to push harder for US specific product development.
I think the long term solution is a North American manufacturing facility. BMW has already done this with some of their lines and it has not resulted in a loss of brand identification. Realistically the transportation costs are only going to increase and the dollar will likely remain low relative to the euro for quite some time. If Mini had a North American production facility they would reduce the complexity of the country specific requirements in each of their manufacturing facilities as well. This could enable model diversification such as 50 state US spec diesels.
There is an increasing number of vehicles that get similar gas mileage to the Mini, many at lower cost. If there was North American production, the steady increase in the price point due to the low dollar could also be moderated. Of course the performance of the Mini exceeds the others, but how much of a premium will buyers pay for that performance if the other cars surpass the Mini in fuel economy. This will likely be the trend in the near future. With production maxed, now is the time for NA expansion and then we might get our diesel – Go MINI!
Question? We have a $2:1 pound. US Dealerships are out of merchandise. No fix in sight.
Would we be able to build a MINI in the states that would offset the cost of importing averything but the Getrag engine, while paying the typical wages for production workers?
If this were to happen I would jump at the opportunity to be a part of that.
Imagine, logging onto the MINIUSA website designing your own personalized MINI, then actually being a part of putting your own MINI together and watching it roll off the line. AHHHHHHHHH!!!!
That would make me a happy boy.
In reference to the B-class Merc: it’s been sold in Canada for several years now and has had increasingly strong sales, particularly in the larger urban centres (Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa) where funky euro exterior styling + premium interior appointments + euro badge factor work best coupled to the compact exterior dimensions. Despite the compact footprint, it truly drives like a much larger car and is amazingly comfortable around town or on longer trips. I would by no means call it a “hot hatch” like my JCW, but the B200T (2.0L Turbo gasoline motor) that my wife drives is also quite a stormer when you need the power and, like most modern turbo engines, quite fuel efficient when not hoofing it. Stoutly built too, like all Mercs used to be. Now the A-class… that’s even more my style, and I would love to see that for sale in Canada alongside the B.
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