White Roof Radio #271

Dan Sep 17th, 2008 Link

I will have to say with the proposed production and the expansion of the MINI brand with the R60, they will need a new factory somewhere.

I may not like how it really looks from the outside, but that will probably change. This is the type of car that would probably get my mom through the door, I had her test drive a Clubman, and she just couldn’t quite get over the small size, and having 4×4 up in NE would be a help too.

So Gabe there’s your reasonable comment.

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lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link

Wow, Todd and DB really dished out the licks in this podcast. I agree with them 100% but unfortunately my own reaction in comments only flamed the fires. Sorry for that.

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lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link

The Suzuki SX4 is the only car in the market positioned anywhere close to this R60. essentially a car, dooded up to be truckish, 4wd, 4doors, tall, roomy. A very average product, but it is unique to Suzuki’s credit (although I know the crowd here will just condemn this car as crap). It has none of the luxury content of a Mini and I can’t see them really competing.

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JonPD Sep 18th, 2008 Link

Would lay money down that as soon as the R60 comes out it will be compared to the CRV and the Rav4, although I think the Outback is the best comparison.

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lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link

they always do put the mini against larger competitors…

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JonPD Sep 18th, 2008 Link

Actually the R60 is dimensionally wider than all three so thats not exactly true lavardera. If you check the stats the only place that its much different is a little on length and a bit more on height.

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Todd Sep 18th, 2008 Link

I’m always intrigued as to what other cars MINIs are compared to and what potentially the R60 will be compared. As I mentioned, there are very few decent comparisons to MINIs when you consider price, size, performance and fuel economy. It really is a complete package and that’s one of the reasons it continues to sell well.

There seems to be a real race among auto manufacturers to claim their place in the “crossover” market. All wheel drive, love it or hate it, seems to be a common thread or, at the very least, option in the class. More hauling capacity, both people and cargo, is a valid need for many people.

It’s difficult to argue that there exists a need in the auto marketplace for a slightly larger vehicle with four doors and maybe all wheel drive as an option. If you have a few kids or a couple of dogs or like to carpool in comfort, a current MINI isn’t a great fit. I don’t understand why it’s so bad to offer a solution that could keep someone within the brand.

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C4 Sep 18th, 2008 Link

Because MINI has never been about catering to the mainstream market, Todd. We can rationalize this back and forth all day and night but i think that MINI’s mission is not to compete head to head with the Toyota, Honda and GMs of the world.

From a purely business point of view I understand the need to diversify the product portfolio, But I don’t think catering to the mainstream car buying product is the best long term strategy either.

I think “SUVs”and “Crossovers” have developed a negative stigma overtime and I don’t think it is a healthy decision for MINI to be actively pursuing that market.

Whatever happened to the mom and pop stationwagon? Why fine vehicles such as the BMW 3 series wagon are such slow sellers and clumsy mobiles such as the X3 and X5 have been selling by the droves? It is all about image for the US auto buyer. People here will never be caught dead driving a “Station wagon” but somewhow it is more acceptable to have that concept sold to us and re-packaged as a “crossover”. What the heck is a crossover anyway? Trans-sexual automobiles?

Give me the option to buy a 4 door Clubman station wagon and I’ll be a happy camper. MINI doesn’t need to go after the Honda CR-V or Toyota RAV-4 market.

By the way, the Suzuki SX-4 or whatever you call it, is an interesting looking vehicle marred by a subpar powertrain and lots of fat = slow porker.

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C4 Sep 18th, 2008 Link

Lavardera, the Suzuki SX4 is a slow and heavy 3,500+ pound porker. Slow and poor fuel economy. Too bad it is an interesting offering in the market place but the car is too compromised to be taken seriously, whether you are a MINI nut or not.

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Chris B. Sep 18th, 2008 Link

This is blasphemous but I think this will indeed a car that you’d be able to track. As long as it maintains the traditional MINI handling, dynamics and size I don’t see why wouldn’t be able to wring this car on the track. Not that you’d want to which I guess is the point. ;p

I’m hoping a Clubman is enough for two kids.

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lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link

I don’t have a handle on the size of this car. I keep imagining it as wider than a clubman, a little bit longer, and taller. But I thought for instance it was smaller than our Mazda 3. Now you are saying its almost as long as a Rav4 and a CRV? That would be at least the size of the Mazda which I just can’t picture. The mini look of it is throwing it off scale for me.

I agree with Todd – not offering this vehicle when there are many people who would like a Mini but believe they can not fit is like walking away from business. C4, your argument that it will hurt the brand long term just sounds like so much wishful thinking. If you want to worry about something worry that this will be so much more successful that they stop making coups and move into only making larger vehicles.

I’m not vouching for the merits of the Suzuki on milage or features or anything else you’ve mentioned. I’m just saying it is the closest product to to the R60 in terms of a lightly veiled auto being positioned as a truck lite. And I do think that was smart of them – they are selling what would otherwise be an unremarkable hatchback on the back of 4wd and some trucky trim..no doubt it works.

I for one would rather see the R60 offered as an automobile, rather than a truckish crossover and get more competent road worthiness out of it. But they would not sell as many and so it goes – there would then really be no reason to offer this. Its a cross or nothing.

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Todd Sep 18th, 2008 Link

People here will never be caught dead driving a “Station wagon”

C4 – you realize that two of us here also own 3-series BMW sport (station) wagons? It’s an immensely practical vehicle but image is not what one is trying to convey in a sport wagon unless you care what people think of the propeller badge on the front which, personally, I couldn’t care less. I like the wagon and it’s a practical choice and enjoyable to drive and that’s all I care about.

I admire the passion of you and others who think the MINI brand should remain “pure” (my interpretation) and stay away from the “mainstream” by adding a crossover. That is what enthusiasm is all about. It’s a fun discussion that we won’t know the result of (will it or will it not kill or dilute the MINI brand) for three to four more years. Maybe we should have a poll. Hmmm…

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JonPD Sep 18th, 2008 Link

Lol Todd! A poll..

My long term feeling has been that Mini more or less made its niche. The management and designers at Mini are well above average at coming up with unique statements in the automotive world. I think there are more than a few directions that would allow them to grow the brand without just moving into mainstream car produciton.

I will be the first to say that the brand should not remain “pure”, brand development does allow access to new markets. I however think that Mini has choosen the easy and predictable path with going to a crossover. The worse part is they are choosing to directly compete with companies that have been doing this for a long time.

I believe there will always be a core of committed Mini fanatics. However as a whole day by day I believe that the numbers are shrinking somewhat, and are definitely becoming the minority of the brand owners.

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C4 Sep 18th, 2008 Link

Todd, I am aware that you and Gabe are both E46 station wagon owners. I have always liked that car for many reasons….. And believe it or not I think it is one of the best looking wagons out there, right up with the Audi Avant A4.

I am trying to approach the R60 with an open mind. But the skeptical in me keeps telling me that vehicle runs against the very core of the MINI product philosophy. Who knows… I may end up owning one. Remember my initial distaste for the R56 and how a R55 Clubman finally ended up in my driveway?

I think MINI is paying very close attention to this discussion. Three to four years is a long time in the car business and if they perceive that this car pose a long term financial risk of sorts…They may decide to pull the plug on it and bring back the R53…..Kidding, kidding!

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C4 Sep 18th, 2008 Link

I think this discussion merits a “Live” Woofcast :)

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lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link

Jon – what other product strategies would you rather see to expand the brand?

I’d love to see a two seater based on the current platform, but aimed more at the miata’s market space. Of course that has no Mini precedent either, and is probably not a terribly sound move business wise as its a small market.

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JonPD Sep 19th, 2008 Link

I second that “Live” Woofcast about this.

I could see them working on developing a USA (their largest market) Mini D, I could have seen them make a Mini truck, a class leading alternative fuel car, a shoting-brake design, what I think though would have addressed the concerns of the Mini dealerships is to add the 3 inches to the Clubman and add a fourth door.

Whats supremely funny I that I already fit very well into the back of a Clubman (not a small person). So with the R60 the only additional features are a tiny bit more room in the boot and enough width for a 3 person rear seat, which so far there is no sign of in the R60. I think this may be held out for the X1 though as one of the defining difference between the cars.

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