Sections: MINI Competitors Sep 18th, 2008 39 Comments We’ve heard rumors that Fiat is planning to bring the 500 to the United States in the next couple of years. And, recently, in the Bay Area of California, Fiat held a research study about small cars that included the Smart, Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit, Nissan Versa and the 500.
WRR listener Jason managed to get an invitation to this event, the idea of which was to do some driving in the cars under normal driving conditions. And his take on it is very interesting.
After that I was a little more pleased with the car’s overall performance. (him being there also hinted that this was put on by Fiat). I felt the car was underpowered too, coming from driving a modified R53 for so long, but he assured me there would be a “JCW like” kit for the Fiat 500 soon, so thats a plus for the little Fiat.
And, he hated the Smart!
Great write-up Jason! Thanks for sharing
[ The Fiat 500 Test Drive ] twothirtyam.com
lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link
As an homage to the original Cinquecento this thing is well designed, but it does not change the fact that the original was homely little turd that looked like a rolling panini. This could capture some of the Mini customers who buy on the small is cute vibe, or the retro is cute VW bug kind of vibe, but I doubt this car will appeal to the MF readers.
ReplyI think Jason said it best in his post.
The Fiat 500 was a pretty good little car. The trouble was that there IS a MINI, so every part of it was compared to a MINI. The car felt very MINI like, with some of the styling interior and exterior. To be completely honest if there was no MINI, I would definitely think about getting one. Trouble is, there IS a MINI.
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dave Sep 18th, 2008 Link
if they also sell the abarth version here, i’d get into it
i hate the smart, too. or at least, the version that’s sold here in the us. to make the smart’s existence worthwhile, they really need to bring the diesel version here
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JonPD Sep 18th, 2008 Link
I have to say that I still think the biggest challenge to this coming to the States is the dealer issue. I actually like the interior of the 500 better than the Mini is some ways.
If they do bring it over think the Abarth will be the one we are likely to see. Think the stats I’ve been seeing for these models are in the area of the Cooper S with less weight than a Mini. Another iconic Frank Stephenson design. If offered here in the States I believe I would add one to our garage with the Mini’s. I know in Europe the 500 has taken a bite into the Mini market. What should be interesting is to see how the new Focus RS is going to stack up against the JCW Mini.
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Dr Obnxs Sep 18th, 2008 Link
well Lavardera, I’m an existance proof that you’re wrong. The 500 Abarth DOES appleal to me. And FWIW, those who have been following the 500 more closely know that the current engine isn’t the one that would come to the US, as the whole engine line-up is expected to be modernized in 2 years or so (variable valve lift and the like).
Anyway, I’m hoping that it will make it over….
Matt
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Radiationman Sep 18th, 2008 Link
Honestly I think price is going to have a lot to do with the success of a 500 in the US. While the MINI isn’t too expensive of a car, at $20k+ for a reasonably equiped MINI it’s still out of reach for many who are interested in it.
However, if the 500 was in the $15k range well equiped it could make a charge at the folks who would “love” a MINI but due to the price are settling for Corollas, Focuses, or similar. Heck it might even poach some folks from Smart, especially the ones who want a small car but not a city car…
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lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link
Well the Arbarth may appeal to MF readers, but the study that was written about was not an Arbarth, and it was not compared with a Cooper S. It was a basic 500 compared with a Yaris, and a Smart. So, I’m not wrong unless you are indeed ready to get this basic turd, hmmm?
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Pete Sep 18th, 2008 Link
I agree with the good Dr! And FIAT has an “esse-esse” package available for the 500 right now that boosts the engine even further! It is a tempting little package!
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JonPD Sep 18th, 2008 Link
Well laverdera I would buy one of the standard 500 as my daily commuter for rainy days when I don’t bike or walk. As a matter of fact I would buy the lowest hp engine thats available, and preferably a diesel. This wouldn’t replace my GP so still have my fun car. I will be checking out both the Isetta and 500 when they come to the States.
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lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link
I hope your dream comes true and you can while away your days on the 500 File website..
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Rocketboy Sep 18th, 2008 Link
The car felt very MINI like, with some of the styling interior and exterior.
Welll, it WAS designed by the same person who designed the first gen MINI, what would you expect. As a matter of fact, that’s the very specific reason I LIKE the 500. It’s more of the same vibe that seems to be missing in the current gen MINI.
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JonPD Sep 18th, 2008 Link
I have had several Mini’s, interesting in the 500, need to collect a MC-12 and a F-430 for a Stephenson collection. ;)
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C4 Sep 18th, 2008 Link
The 500 may pose a problem for MINI if they don’t do some tweaks to the current R56 or the third gen model after it.
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JonPD Sep 18th, 2008 Link
Possible but without a real dealer network that is Fiat’s biggest issue in the States. From what I’ve heard from friends in Europe though this car is making a dent in the Mini community there.
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C4 Sep 18th, 2008 Link
Fiat has made a huge recovery in Europe. I think the point I am trying to make here is that MINI can’t afford to fall asleep at the wheel. This ain’t 2002 anymore, when they had this market all for themselves.
Competition is a good thing.
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lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link
I don’t think the 500 would make any headway against Mini in the US market even if Mini never brought out the R56. Fiat has a lot of credibiltiy to earn, and they have to be prepared to make the US a big part of their production if that’s to happen. I’ve often seen this argument rolled out as a variation on the general grudge against the R56 and I don’t think it holds water.
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Jason Sep 18th, 2008 Link
As far as price goes, they kept throwing around the number $13,500. Which puts it at like half of my MINI. Could be just a “what if” number though.
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C4 Sep 18th, 2008 Link
Greg, MINI has no reputation to fall back on in the US market back in 2002. The last time a “Mini” had been sold new here was in 1968. The BMW parentage helped but still the car came in the midst of the SUV heyday and cheap gasoline. Quality and reliability too were a huge question mark back in those days.
If MINI did it, I don’t see why not Fiat can pull a similar success story here provided that the product equals or exceeds MINI quslity standards and offers an unique blend of looks, customization and performance under cutting MINI’s asking prices.
If some folks are willing to jump on the Smart car bandwagon (Which is a mediocre vehicle by all intents and purposes) I can see a market for the Fiat 500 for folks wanting a truly ‘Mini” sized vehicle with Euro looks/charm and cheaper than a basic R56 MINI Cooper.
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neuron Sep 18th, 2008 Link
The 500 Abarth with SS kit will be revealled in October in Paris motor show. It should come with 160 bhp which puts it in the MINI Cooper S neighborhood.
I actually like to look of basic Fiat 500 better than the Abarth version.
May be Fiat group will establish combined Ferrari/Messeratti/Alfa Romeo/Fiat dealerships, so when you take your Fiat 500 in for service, you can get a Ferarri loaner?
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Rocha Sep 18th, 2008 Link
What is exactly the complaint with the Smart Car? I have test driven it twice, and I thoroughly enjoyed it both times. The paddle shifting (lifting off the the throttle during shifts) and the rear wheel drive made it a fun ride. Is it that it compares poorly against a MINI? Because I think comparing the two cars is like comparing apples to oranges. They are two totally different cars, in two totally different price categories. The only thing that they have in common is that they are both small. Let me just state that I love MINI Coopers, but I love the Lotus Elise even more, which is why I just acquired one. I also own a Honda Insight as a daily commuter which I think I might replace with a Smart Car down the road. So I ask again, what exactly is the issue with the Smart Car?
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JonPD Sep 18th, 2008 Link
You beat me to the punch with pointing out Smart sales C4 as a proof.
So far from what I’ve been hearing from my friends the 500 is a solid little car with good to excellent reliability.
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GregW Sep 18th, 2008 Link
Here in NZ, the prices are 500 NZ$29,900 (US$20,015)the same price as a MINI One, the Cooper Chilli being NZ$39,900 (US$26,709). You have to compare apples to apples though when it comes to engine size and spec. Why are sales of MINIs down in Italy? Could it be that native Italians are buying their own product?
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GregW Sep 18th, 2008 Link
By the way, one of the top selling cars in NZ right now is the Suzuki Swift 4 door selling at NZ$19,900 (US$13,321). And they can’t get enough of them.
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C4 Sep 18th, 2008 Link
GregW its been said that the R56 MINI is “too big” for Italian tastes and streets. That plus the added premium have had an impact on its sales. And Italians will favor their domestic sourced 500 over the British import any day of the week…
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lavardera Sep 18th, 2008 Link
I’m not saying the 500 won’t sell. I think it will. I just don’t think its going to rob sales from Mini. If they can sell it at 13,500 they will be competing with Hyundi, Kia, and Toyata, less so Honda as the Fit’s format is a larger 4door. And also the Smart. A performance model would have to come into the country in numbers equal to the basic model akin to the Cooper and CooperS which I highly doubt.
Mini was an unknown in 2002, any british car was suspect I suppose. But Mini left because they didn’t/couldn’t/wouldn’t meet compliance. Fiat left because their quality destroyed their sales in the US. They are starting from someplace just above Yugo. Its not the same.
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Shamus Sep 19th, 2008 Link
I’m a bit miffed that I wasn’t able to go to this event. I also got the invitation but was scuba diving in the caribbean and I didn’t think my wife would buy it as an excuse not to go. Oh well.
By the way, the quality issue is not a factor. You have to remember who their consumer demographic is. The majority of them will be simply too young to remember the 80’s era rust-buckets that Fiat was selling at the time. If Chrysler can change in twenty years, so can Fiat.
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neuron Sep 19th, 2008 Link
Fiat 500 is absolutely going to rob sales from MINI. MINI drivers, who bought the car because of the styling, who will never consider Kia or Yaris, who, if MINI does not exist, would be driving BMWs and Porche, will switch to Fiat 500. The fact that’s it cheaper car would only help the switch.
People who bash Smart simply don’t get it. They don’t realized that the vehicle should be seen as a four wheel scooter or motorized quadricycle, and it serves it’s purpose EXTREMILY well in the city centers in Europe where there are places I would not be able to get to with a car unless I am driving a Smart car. Complaining about it’s performence or ride quality is as pointless as complaining about MINI cooper’s offroad ability or cargo space.
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neuron Sep 19th, 2008 Link
BTW Fiat did have a bad rep. but not necessarily worse than that of ALL BRITISH CARS. The 2002 MINI quality sucked and sold like hotcakes. People are willing to sacrifice quality for style, otherwise everyone would be driving Toyota Camry and Landrover would not exist. The target audience for Fiat 500, like that of MINI cooper, are young and computer savy. The latest quality reports online are never too far away. They don’t need to rely on quarter century old by word of mouth reputation.
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JonPD Sep 19th, 2008 Link
neuron my main problem with the Smart is that the brakes are sub-standard. There isn’t any excuse why that small of a car should stop so lazily, as a matter of fact brakes are more important in a city car than any other since cities are filled with total unpredictability. My other issue is with the gear change which is random at best, every time I’ve been in a Smart I have the feeling that if I needed to move quickly out of the way I would likely end up as a bumper ornament on a SUV.
lavardera I honestly would buy a 500 over another Mini at this point. My next car is very likely to be a commuter car and little else. I would of course consider a Mini One or a Mini One D if they were available in the States. Failing that my only hope is for the Isetta or 500 which both recall the old days of small cars.
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neuron Sep 19th, 2008 Link
BTW, did anyone mention that the ulgy old turd was voted, in 2006, the sexiest car in the world? Because it “advertise nothing about it’s owner except it’d someone who doesn’t need to try”
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neuron Sep 19th, 2008 Link
Last time I drove the Smart was before the redesign. The break was not great, but I did not find it particularly problematic either. But I was mostly driving slowly in traffic anyway. I wonder if the redesigned car is heavier and therefore harder to stop. The transmission definitely stuttered. Somehow it did not bother me as I drove, top down, through the allyways of St. Germain or Seville. Maybe the absinthe has something to do with it? It was still better than the 30 year old 2cv I have driven in the hill country in Provence … and I loved the 2CV.
I would buy a 500, too. In my humble survey of 4 MINI owners in the my small street of 14 households,(used to be 6 MINI owners, one sold the car, one moved away) all of us are willing to get a Fiat 500. One of my neighbors, who was about to get a MINI, called Fiat and asked if he could go to Italy and pick up a 500 to bring back to U.S. No reply form Fiat, of course. I don’t have any more luck than my neighbor either. I still can’t get MINIUSA to tell me exactly what is the towing capacity on my convertible JCW.
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Ian F Sep 19th, 2008 Link
neuron – sicne MINI UK doesn’t even show a tow-rating for the ‘Vert or coupe on their site, I’d guess there’s a snowball’s chance in hell of MINIUSA giving you any data. VW-US frowns on towing as well, while in Europe thier cars are available from the dealer with hitches and ratings are readily available.
You’ll just have to use your judgement.
I like the 500. I think there’s little chance of me ever buying one, but more competition is good.
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JonPD Sep 19th, 2008 Link
Also the 500 was voted at the European car of the year 2008.
http://www.caroftheyear.org/pages/Coty08.htm
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C4 Sep 19th, 2008 Link
Greg, I would not call the basic Fiat 500 a “turd”. It is very far from it. I guess the Stephenson-Fiat connection on that car bothers you a bit. It is OK, we all have our biases….
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lavardera Sep 19th, 2008 Link
No Frank, unlike you I have no bias for or against Stephenson. I admire his work. The original 500 is not a pretty car, its cute, but very homely, and the design of the new one follows on the original. I think as a design interpretation of the original car the new one is very well done. But when you are starting with what is essentially an ugly car this approach lands you with another ugly car. Its a bulgy little blob shape – turd is rude, so I apologize if that offends. The original was not graceful, and neither is the reincarnation.
That part of it is just a styling exercise, which is part of the problem. Given that the platform is so completely different between the two I’d say it makes less design sense for the old and new to be so similar. The original was a rear engine, rear drive car, the new front transverse mounted, front wheel drive. I see it more as a styling exercise that has more in common with the new beetle than the Mini. Conceptually this thing is a few steps away from a bug with a Rolls hood on it.
Now I’m not faulting Stephenson for any of that – he did not design the platform, nor was he the guy who chose to reinvent the car this way. But its part of what the car is and its part of why I don’t love it.
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Dylan Sep 19th, 2008 Link
@GregW do you know when Fiat will bring the Arbath version of the 500 to NZ?
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GregW Sep 22nd, 2008 Link
Dylan – haven’t heard about the Abarth coming yet, so keep looking at Autocar mag. The 500 is priced at a premium, and I would bet it will be also priced above Japanese cars in USA. So its not a “cheap” car any more. check out videos; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8EwxrT4Nj0&feature=related
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GregW Sep 26th, 2008 Link
I just read that the Abarth is only being made in LH drive and no plans for RH drive for GB and Japan markets yet.
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