Sections: Ask MotoringFile Apr 30th, 2009 21 Comments This week’s Ask MF comes from George:
I bought a use 2005 Cooper S last year that I completely love. But according to the dash light and the pedal feel it’s needs some pads. I got a quote a $1200 at the MINI dealer and after picking my jaw up off the ground decided that this was going to be my first DIY on my car. I’m going to have a friend who’s done this before help with the install and with the help of some info on MF I should be good to go. But my question is what to get. Obviously I could get some OEM replacement pads but I’ve heard really good things about Hawk aftermarket pads. Also I’m thinking I might as well get new rotors since I’ll have everything apart. Should get cross drilled, slotted or just stick with the OEM set-up? Also it’s worth mentioning that I drive the car hard and plan on starting to do either an Autocross or track school this year. Any advice is appreciated!
Here at MF we’re partial to OEM if you’re going to be on the street 100% of the time. They offer a good combination of everything you’d need for normal driving. However if you’re going to take your car to the track we really like the Hawk pads. You can get them at a couple of MF sponsors – notably Outmotoring. As far as rotors we’d recommend slotted and drilled (yes we know they’re not actually drilled) if you’re doing track duty. Also it’s essential to upgrade your fluid during this process to ATE Super-blue or something equivalent. In fact a couple of MF sponors actually have brake kits or components that will definitely help:
hardingsan Apr 30th, 2009 Link
i’ve always wondered this, but do the aftermarket pads have the wear sensor in them? or if you go aftermarket do you have to deal with a lit dash-light on all the time?
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cct1 Apr 30th, 2009 Link
What I’ve learned about brakes in no particular order:
There is no such thing as a dual duty pad; ie if you’re going to the track/autox, you’re better off using a pad dedicated to that use, and switching back to street pads after the event. Not only do they function better, it’s much easier on the rotors in the long run. It’s not a big deal to switch pads on the fronts, the rears is another story–but rear rotors are cheap, and many of us cheat an leave our track pads on the rears year round.
Good brake fluid is critical. ATE and Motul are both great (ATE is cheaper, boiling point is a little lower than Motuls, but they’re fairly close).
Slotted rotors or plain rotors are the way to go. The track gurus will tell you it’s pretty much personal preference, performance is the same. The slots do scrub the pads (at least theoretically) better, and may disperse gas better, so I run slotted rotors. The heat generated at the track leads to issues with drilled rotors cracking between the holes (and the drilled holes can actually cause more issues with heat than they solve unless you get into something like the upper end kits seen on Porsche’s and the like). For the MINI, drilled rotors are pretty much bling, I’d stay away from them if you’re going to track your car.
As for a BBK, decide on what you’re long term goals are before you buy one; there are so many good ones out there (and great vendors that can help you out here). I went from stock, to JCW’s, to Wilwood 11.75 to the TSW BDM (1.25 inch wide, 11.75 diameter). Should have gone with the TSW kit to begin with, a wider diameter rotor is also an option, but I was set on running 15 inch tires at the track. It all depends on which wheels/tires you’re going to run, but to put it briefly, it’s cheaper in the long run to get the kit that’s going to work for you at the end–you don’t want you’re brakes to be your limiting factor on the track. That being said, the stock brakes with a good set of pads isn’t a bad place to start, but if you know you’re in it for the long haul, a dedicated BBK is the way to go (Don’t bother with the JCW kit (The kit for the R56 is pretty darned good, but the R53 kit isn’t up to that level. It’s ok, better than street, but there are much better, cheaper, and lighter alternatives on the market). One thing about the aftermarket BBK’s: Pad changes are a breeze, you can do it in seconds. Even the JCW kit is a bit of a pain to change pads…
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David Apr 30th, 2009 Link
Most of the aftermarket pads have the notch in them where the OEM sensor fits, the Hawk HPS pads I installed have the notch. I ended up not replacing the OEM sensor, just twisted the wires together to close the loop, extinguishing the dash light. I consider the dash light experience a lesson learned – if you pay closer attention to the pad wear by regular visual inspection, and replace the pads before the light comes on, you’re better off.
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cct1 Apr 30th, 2009 Link
The wear sensor is only on the rears. There are some aftermarket pads that have a slot for the sensor; if you run a pad that doesn’t have a spot for the sensor, you can simply zip tie the sensor up (the light won’t go off unless it’s contacting metal, so with the sensor detached there is no warning light). That’s what I’ve done, it’s no big deal to visually inspect the pads and not rely on the sensor.
If you’re going to the track, you need to visually inspect your pads anyway–you need AT LEAST half the pad there before you start the day. Always a good idea to have an extra set of pads too….
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bee1000 Apr 30th, 2009 Link
Just bought OE rotors from Outmotoring – half the price of the dealer or the shop doing the work would sell them for. I’m getting them installed with Carbotech pads which are supposed to be a little better performing than stock and with non-corrosive dust.
I would have kept the OE pads (since they lasted me 79,000 miles), but they are so dusty and some of that dust is now embedded in my wheels’ finish.
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Brice Apr 30th, 2009 Link
I disagree wholeheartedly with the suggestion of using drilled and slotted rotors for track duty (nice plug for the sponsor though). Removing that mass from such a small rotor will have a bad effect. These brakes are so small that they cool just fine on their own, and need the extra mass to avoid heat soak much more than they need surface area to cool better.
Drilled/slotted rotors in OEM size offer no tangible performance benefit and increase the risk of stress cracking. If you are going to track your MINI, get a big brake kit or the JCW braking setup.
Reply@Brice: If you listen to old episodes of Whiteroofradio you’ll know that I actually agree with you about cross-drilled/slotted. However there are various opinions out there so I wanted to present some choices.
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that.guy Apr 30th, 2009 Link
My mechanic, who preps Minis for racing, says to avoid Zimmerman rotors like the plague (or Swine Flu).
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that.guy Apr 30th, 2009 Link
I disagree wholeheartedly with the suggestion of using drilled and slotted rotors for track duty
Seconded.
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faster, Tobias! Apr 30th, 2009 Link
A couple of things; I would also advise against drilled rotors, because of the cracking issue, but do recommend slotted rotors as they allow gas that builds up between pad and rotor to dissipate.That gas prevents contact between rotor and pad and diminishes brake effectiveness. After lapping sessions in my ‘05 JCW with a completely stock set-up and enduring major fade after only 5 or 6 laps, I switched to PowerSlot rotors and Porterhouse pads. While not as effective as a BBK, it is a lot cheaper route to go and I did see a reduction in fade. IIRC, the brake wear sensors on the MINI are located at the front left and rear right. It wouldn’t make sense to have them on the rear only, as 80% of the braking is done at the front and thus, that is where the pads wear quickest.
ReplyI’ve run both drilled and slotted rotors on much, much faster, heavier cars without the cracking issues people seem to love complaining about. Sadly, the old adage holds true, “you get what you pay for” and most of the really affordable stuff out there is garbage.
It helps to remember that essentially, brakes turn speed into heat, the primary differences between brake options are HOW they do that. It’s all about how much heat a pad can transfer to a rotor, how much heat the rotor can absorb, and how quickly the rotor can dissipate that heat.
Cross-drilled rotors are great if you want a sharp initial bite, lower mass, and quick heat dissipation (look blingy too). But, they can’t absorb the excessive heat-soak generated from prolonged racing because there is less metal (holes!) to buffer those high temperatures. The cheaper versions are susceptible warping, and yes, cracking. High quality ones like Brembos are on everything from Porsche to Mercedes, you decide.
Slotted rotors are a relatively new breed designed to allow the surface of the pad to release the gasses generated from friction and come into better contact with the rotor (same as drilled). This also gives you a fast initial pedal bite, but unlike drilled, the slots don’t go all the way through eliminating the worry of cracking at the holes. They have enough mass to absorb the heat from prolonged braking and, if paired to a good street performance pad like EBC Greens or Hawk HPS, they make a great daily setup that can be autocrossed just as easily.
Remember, autocrossing, doesn’t have the deep heat-cycling that full track days can generate. The courses are shorter, and at generally lower speeds so you really don’t need a big brake kit. Also, a full track setup has the tendency to make a whole crapload of noise (as I can attest with my Subaru, it’s embarrassing). That being said, we are all (regardless of gender) “boys with toys” here, so get the best you can. The better your brakes, the deeper you can carry your speed into corners and, not to sound too much like your dad, safety first! You can put all the horsepower you want into a car, but if you can’t stop, what good is it?
Have fun!
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Cliff May 1st, 2009 Link
I recently replaced my brakes and due to monetary constraints, I used OEM parts. I auto-cross once in a while, but mainly drive on the street. I bought new rotors, pads, fluid and sensors from a MINI parts vendor. I used a local shop with a good reputation and the total cost was $540. Way cheaper than the dealer for the same equipment.
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Pedro May 1st, 2009 Link
I would also advise staying away from the drilled rotors if you are using them on the track. Have seen first-hand, cracking that is being described here.
I run stock rotors on my R53 with Hawk HT-10 pads and have amazing bite without the need to a BBK. Think about it – the RSR MINIs ran the Grand Am KONI Challenge on stock rotors (only recently did they change to the JCW rotors). If the stock rotors work fine for full race-prepped MINIs, they will do fine for the occasional track day.
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Pedro May 1st, 2009 Link
Let me clarify – I run the HT-10’s on the track ONLY… I use stock pads on the street.
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cct1 May 2nd, 2009 Link
Pedro, from what I understand, they are limited to what they can do with the brakes–there are other series like this where to stay in class there is basically little you can do to the car other than rollcages, etc.
There is another series (can’t remember which one) where someone asked about why the driver was using stock brakes, and he replied the same way–because he had to, not because he wanted to.
Brakes depend on a bunch of things, but as you get better on the track, the stock brakes just don’t hold up well to fade.
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Dave May 2nd, 2009 Link
FYI: The JCW Sport Brake kits for the R53 recently came way down in price.
Inskip MINI in Rhode Island just put JCW Sport Brake Kit in my 03′ MCS, and the whole thing including installation cost less than $1,200.00.
They look and work fantastic and are essentially still OEM.
ReplyDave, the JCW’s do look great, but they’re heavy, very heavy. They act as a heat sink on the track…
They’re ok for the occasional track day, but for the money there are better choices for the track (although I’ll give you none of those choices look as nice as the JCW kit).
I had a very, very (Nearly catastrophic) experience with the (R53) JCW brakes on the track; IMHO they’re just not up to the task of heavy track use. The R56 kit is different, it’s a pretty good setup.
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Dave May 5th, 2009 Link
Hey Chris,
I agree for “track” use AND high speeds, the BBK’s are the way to go hands down.
But, in answering the original post, the speeds at which he will be driving in Auto-X do not “require” the Aftermarket BBK, and since 99% of his driving would be on the sreet, he will get more bang for the buck with JCW set up.
There are also additonal costs using a BBK’s for just Auto X. Including but not limited to having to buy new Rims to accomodate BBK and/or Wheel spacers. Not the best set up for an all around “family” MINI daily driver.
And, for novice-”occasional” Auto-X the additional money saved by going with the JCW could better used for other mods which would be also enjoyed on the street as well. IMO, it’s that approach to modding which keeps the fun factor of the MINI alive.
And, the OEM JCW Sport Brake Kit for the 2007 and later models is made by Brembo, and a 4 piston set up just like their aftermarket set ups.
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