The Unofficial Austin Rover Web Source (say that three times fast) has some further information on the upcoming MINI derived two-seater sports car concept. It would seem that its final branding is still very up in the air:
>Sources state that the sporting concept looks promising, with pleasing styling – the designs (one of which carried the MINI-MAXImum moniker) are retro-modern in style, but with a nod to the past, carrying traces of Triumph TR4 and Stag in places. Sources in the USA have also confirmed that MINI distributors over there have been told to expect ‘some very big surprises’ in 2006/7, stating that ‘more than one new model is planned.’
[ Coventry revived in Oxford? ] Unofficial Austin Rover Web Source
MF Analysis: So it sounds as if BMW is not quite sure which direction they want to head in regards to branding at this point. Do they leverage this incredible brand that you’ve built up over the past five years and give it a MINI derived name? Or do they create yet another brand that is sold via the MINI sales channel in order to give the car a fresh start? Personally I’d be suprised if BMW decided on the latter and created an entire new brand for the car. In fact I’d be surprised to not see MINI branding on the car in some way.
How about a MINI Triumph?
They could call it the “Triumph TRx presented by MINI.” I would much prefer it to stand alone, personally. Don’t muddle it in with MINI – just use the dealership/service network.
I always liked the looks of the MINI ACV30 which used a mid-engine MGF platform.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1286/concept.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1286/concept.html</a>
Could I hope for a roadster derivitive?
BMW has done so well with the concept of modernizing an icon of British motoring from the ’60’s , why not follow the pattern and modernize another icon? Personally, I would love to see an updated TR3/TR4 derived two seater with Triumph badging. It would kick the 20 year old Miata’s a$$. And I imagine it would be as easy to find MINI parts on it as it is to find BMW parts on our MINIs.
I think we’d be up to Triumph TR9 by now.
As the former owner of a 1.9L Z3, the Triumph idea has some appeal to me. However, the risk is that the car will come with too many modern conveniences that add weight and civility to a car. I’m not sure that civility and Triumph should be used in the same sentence.
I’m interested…
Maybe they could just relabel the BMW dealerships as “British Motor Works”. Those dealers could sell MINI’s, Triumph’s and Rolls Royce.
I agree with Nathaniel, “…presented by MINI”
I think my Moxie would be less ideal if it had a big ol BMW propeller on it.
People don’t mind that the car is made by another company, or a baby of another company, as long as the car has it’s own identity. [Clearly I wouldn’t mistake a Triumph for a Beamer but still…]
Cheers all and happy motoring!
Jono
<blockquote>However, the risk is that the car will come with too many modern conveniences that add weight and civility to a car.</blockquote>
Amen!
I love the sheer simplicity of those old cars. The only modernization I’d want to see would be safety features like airbags and so forth like the MINI simply to make it safe to operate the same roads as the H2’s and other behemoths. Otherwise, it should barely have air conditioning in it in my opinion. Put in the low seats and the deep foot wells; a thin, huge steering wheel, a bohemian gauge cluster with bouncy needles, and above all else give me that phlegmy, deep exhaust note.
I’m not sure I could contain myself if this really happens!
Nor could I…I still think folks in the garage expansion business could really cash in.
The only Triumphs I remember are the infamous TR-7s from 20-25 years ago.
never driven or being in one, but this sounds like a very interesting project. So it seems that now BMW is in the business of resurrecting defunct British makes?
What’s next?
The Austin Healey or the Bug Eye Sprite??
Frank,
The TR-7 was a real loser…U have to go back to the TR-4 or TR-6 (TR-5 TR-250) for some classic machines (notice I didn’t say great). Model a replacement on one of those with no Lucas parts and I’ll take one tomorrow! Oh, and throw in a big Healey also (I never did fit in the Bug eye)
As long as a British manufactured car has no Lucas parts and doesn’t leak oil, you’ll have a very reliable car.
Would this new car be RWD? Has there ever been a RWD Mini?
Probably the most notable styling cues from Triumph’s modern era (ie post-war) were the eyebrows over the headlamps (inboard of the wings/fenders) on all TRs from TR2 to TR5 and, in the case of the Stag, the so-called “Targa” arrangement of inbuilt roll-bar incorporating removable roof panels. Perhaps, it is these aspects which the article is hinting at…?
The former would give a new MINI-based sportster an individual (Triumph family derived)appearance while the latter would provide a cost-effective alternative to an electric roof while, again, revisiting ‘past Triumphs.’
Wouldn’t a modern Austin Healey look very similar to the Z4?
To Mike: There has never been an “official” factory RWD Mini. One of the signature “hallmark” attributes of the classic Mini and new BMW is that the cars are FWD. In fact, the original 1959 Mini designed by Sir Alec Issigonis was the first ever compact FWD production car. The ’59 Mini was groundbreaking in a world where 99% of the vehicles produced at the time were RWD. The transversally mounted 4-cyl A-series engine and transmission had never been seen before on any other BMC product or from any other world manufacturer.
MINI Cooper
MINI Cooper S
MINI Cooper Convertible
MINI Cooper S Convertible
MINI Cooper Traveller
MINI Cooper S Traveller
MINI Triumph TR9
Works for me.
Speaking of bug-eyed sprites, is it just me or does the MINI concept car mentioned by Jack G look like it might be a modern version of the bug-eye. I owned a 62 sprite for several years and the car was a blast to drive, although it had no real power and was a money-pit.
BMC made a two-seater Mini derivative that was going to be an MG – based on Mini floor pan with an MG grille similar to MG 1100 saloon. It never got past the mock-up stage. It is on the British Motor Heritage site and the Unofficial Austin Rover site. Of course BMW sold the MG name so it won’t be an MG. Obviously also it can’t be an Austin Healey either cause they (BMC) let the Healy name die out. Pictures of Triumph models are also here.
The closest Mini got to RWD was the “Twini” – made by John Cooper which had an engine in the front and in the back. It nearly killed him when he crashed it and caused his withdrawal from F1 racing business. Check out story at MiniFanClub on MSN groups.
Greg W –
Actually, the 2-seater convertible was a running prototype, and the mock-up MG was basically a Mini with an Elf front and a cute little MG grill. I visited the BMH when it was at Syon Park, and the 2-seater Mini/MG was as well finished as any production car, and all elements functioned.
As a prime example of BL’s miopic view of car production, it’s a sad reminder of missed opportunities that BMC and later British Leyland were notorious for. When the Mini/MG was mooted for production, the existing Spridget cars had side curtains and a top that took ages to erect on a suddenly rainy day, even with two people, and I speak from experience. That may have been acceptable for some, but it hindered sales in the US market, where a much more civilized entry-level sports car would sell better, as the Spitfire so amply proved. Remember, at that time BMC and Leyland, who owned Triumph, were direct competitors in every single segment.
The Mini sportscar variation of the MG had roll-up windows, modern styling that vaguely resembled the later Fiat 124 Spyder, and best of all, a one-handed hood (top) that was a model of good design. It was meant to be complementary to both the existing FWD MG-1100 and the Midget, but may have been seen as more of a threat to them, as well. As with many of BMC/BL’s better ideas, it was shelved, and after I saw it at the Heritage, I’m convinced they had a winner on their hands and blew it.
At the time, the Museum staff was crewed by very helpful older gentlemen, who actually had quite a bit of knowledge regarding the cars in their care, as well as actively working on a number of on-going restorations. They didn’t have a tour very often, you just wandered about, in my case with a big grin. One of ’em popped the bonnet to show me the very tidy engine compartment with a Mini Cooper motor sitting there, then laughed when he realized I’d meant I wanted “the hood up”, and oblidged me by pulling the top up in one clean motion – something its MG contemporaries seemed to be lacking.
He was quite conversant on MINI and British car history in general, and a bit later in my wanderings, let me sit in the driver’s seat of the ’65 Monte-winning MINI to take slide piccies of the Factory rally dash and interior. Ah, times were simpler then, cars were different then, our hearts were younger then. Would that BMW hadn’t sold the MG name for a nickel, and Big Healeys were still prowling low and sleek around my neighborhood. I’d like to see BMW’s resurrection of Triumph, a marque that seemed to have a sporting aspect to every car they ever made. A new TR250 wouldn’t hurt none, either, IMHO.
BCNU,
Rob in Dago
Maybe this is what they really meant when we heard rumors of MINI doing a true two-seater… My step-mom used to have a bug-eye sprite.
I’d definitely like to see where this line of thinking is taking them.
I believe I recall one sportily styled cosmetic variation of the classic Mini (with 998cc engine?) being briefly called SPRITE at some stage;not alluding here to the Austin Sprite title given to the two-seater ‘Midget’- used after the rights to ‘Healey’ expired, and that would, I guess, give a new MINI-based sportster some heritage claim to the model name. But – for enthusiasts with long memories – the revival of a famous Austin/Austin- Healey name wouldn’t sit comfortably alongside Triumph which – as has been stated – was very much a rival manufacturer for many years. So, not Triumph Sprite! I guess that – if not the “MINI Sprite” – simply the “MINI Triumph” might work (somewhat ambiguously), if Triumph has to be resurrected by the marketing men to exploit its sporty connotations …
Just as BMW was smart to have the Mini stand on it’s own, not just released as a BMW Mini, they would be smart to let the Triumph stand on it’s own too, not just as a Mini-Triumph. With a little signage change current Mini dealers could easily become dual product line Mini/Triumph dealers. Keep both cars true to their heritage.
Agreed, Mark. There seems to be little point in exhuming Triumph unless it is to be an additional marque/brand in its own right. In which case: BMW continues to offer traditional German full prestige product line; MINI, delivering fashionable small cars in hardtop,convertible, estate variants; Triumph introduced for sportscars (at a level that provides alternatives to those from the BMW stable (eg cheaper, maybe quirkier, ‘younger’ in image).
The best two cars I have ever owned in my 50 years of driving are the 1952 TR2 and my present 05 MC. What a dream twosome for a garage to offer its customers.
If Triumph had been able to stay in business it is not unreasionable to think that they might have gone in the same direction as Toyota did for a sports car. That is mid engine, rear drive car based on a production car. Toyota’s MR2 was based on Corolla underpinnings and drivetrain.
What ever the final outcome, I hope for a car that is light and simple. Rear wheel drive would be nice.
John
Thanks to Rob in Dago for the comments and explanation – very informative.
Just a plea to the marketing men at BMW… Please do the heritage of both Mini and Triumph some justice and don’t call this something like Mini Triumph, that would be so historically incorrect it’d hurt. I actually do like the idea of a Mini Sprite, because indeed the name Sprite was one of many “special edition” names used for Mini’s. The link with the Austin-Healey Sprite is also more obvious than with Triumph (Austin).
Also, I’m not sure the Triumph name would be such a great choice. I personally associate it more with old men with long beards than MG and maybe even Morgan (except for the Spitfire, but somehow that’s not so much tied to the Triumph name for me, on a mushy touchy-feely level). That wouldn’t stop me from every getting a nice classic Triumph if the opportunity arose, it just might be a sign that the Triumph name doesn’t have such a great ring to it over here in mainland Europe. Alternatively, this might just be totally personal 🙂
People would rapidly get used to a new name if they thought the concept was cool. How about:
MINI TRX
MINI Midget
MINI Sprite
They would all work if attached to the right platform.
If they use the new MCS engine, though, I want more boost.
I kinda like the MINI Triumph TR and MINI Triumph TRS instead of the 9 That way there could be two engines and trims to fit into the family tree like the other offerings..
I agree,
Make: MINI
Model: Triumph
Trim: TR9
Actually, I hate to burst some bubbles, but the “infamous” Lucas parts are not really that bad. In my 72 TR6 (and the one before that, and before that, etc, etc) the only 2 problems I’ve ever had were a broken wire LAST year to the turn signals and having to clean the rear light connectors. That is it. Every Lucas part is fine. The biggest “problem” with any of the British cars was one of owner maintenance. You HAVE to do a bit of maintenance on your own to keep them running. We generally lazy Americans never liked doing that. Now the leaking oil thing is something different all together! I’ve never had even modern seals last more than 5 years without the car starting to mark terriotry.
Joe Burlein
First off, I own several Triumphs, I resent being called old and I shaved off my beard last summer. But seriously now folks, could BMW do this, yes. Should they do it? Ummm maybe. Remember, they would be targeting a niche market that just got more crowded with the launch of the Solstice and the Skye. Add to that the poster child of the segment, the Miata, and there’s probbaly not much pie left. But then again, they have done quite well with the Mini in a very competitive segment. But then again, BMW is not immune to making mistakes either.
My .02,
Base model, 4 cyl, RWD; Triumph Spitfire
Upmarket model. supercharged 4 cyl, AWD; Triumph Hurricane
And yes, the irony is amusing.
Cheers,
Kurt Oblinger
Just to clarify a little ….
As I understand it, the Healey family still owns the rights to the use of the ‘Healey’ badge, and so far they have steadfastly refused any approaches to see it put back on to a modern car.
On naming policy, I would have thought ‘TR’ is inappropriate to a car which might be based on small/compact car engineering ? Ideally, therefore, it ought to be a re-born Spitfire, but i can’t see the Germans ever doing that, can you ?
And here’s a (financial) opinion – if BMW decide to a stand-alone Triumph, even if it is based on the MIN, then they will need to sell at least 50,000 cars every year for it to make economic sense. In which case, surely, they will have to aim at the Miata/MR2 market sector ?
GRAHAM ROBSON
Here’s my little take on this concept.
While BMW would have to aim at the Miata niche, I think there is growth potential there. The MR2 has left the market, so there’s one competitor down. IN my mind, that leaves the Miata, the Soltice, and the Skye. The Soltice and Skye seem like muscle cars to me, they’re pretty big in comparison to the Miata. The Miata is $24,000ish. If BMW can put a two-seater roadster on the market of the same quality as the Mini Cooper, label it a Triumph, and price it at under $18,000, they will eat the Miata alive. BMW’s 2-seaters are great cars, but not too many can realistically afford them. Even Miatas are starting to creep out of the “affordable” category. Drop a Spitfire or TR? for $17,999 and you could be on course to record sales.
For someone of my generation (teenager in the 1960s…gasp…) the Sprite/Midget were the first rung on the sportscar ladder. I passed my driving test on a Mk1 Frogeye in 1964. These were no frills, economy cars with not a huge amount of performance even for their era but had a great grin factor and were relatively uncompromising, in the way a true sportscar should be. Since their demise, there hasn’t really been a replacement, in my view, although I realise the MX5/Miata comes close. Unfortunately, it doesn’t have the perceived heritage that comes with the A-H or MG badge. If MINI could do the same for ‘starter’ sportscars as they have for the classic Mini (ie revive the niche) they’d be onto a long-term winner.
It seems they are thinking along these lines but can’t use Healey because Healey isn’t available from the family of that name and MG may yet go Chinese (!) So Triumph would be an alternative title. All they have to do is put a lightweight two seat open body on the Cooper and Cooper S platforms and garnish with a Triumph badge and the niche is secured….
I have been driving TR6s as daily drivers for 23 years. I love the styling and the feel. They are simple. When I bought mine it was used because there were no new ones at the time so there has been issues as with any used car. But with that said, I love my TR and have three. The TRiumphs up to the 7 were evolutionary cars some parts of the 6 go back to the 2. The 7 got caught by production problems and labor relations. Though they were ironed out the reputation was set. The TR8 with the Rover V8 could run with Corvetts. With everyone going retro I think a TR9 based on the TR6 would be great. The biggest problem we current drivers have with the TR6 is POWER. The TR6 of Briton had mechanical fuel injected 150hp and the USA had emission controled carburatered 105hp out of a 2.5L push rod cast iron 6 Cylinder. With the advances of engine technology it could be hot. I could see a dual overhead cam aluminum alloy electronically controlled fuel injection and ignition 6 cylinder in the cavernous engine bay of a TR6 and still have room for a supercharger.
But keep it simple! One of the great things I love about the TR is its Big speedo and Tach in the real wood dash with with just enough gauges to let me know whats going on. Give me a good heater and good stereo and let me Go! I don’t need a fist of gadjets; I’m a driver not a toy player.
Oh! I forgot a couple of things. Out of this 72 cast iron engine pulling 2300lbs of steel I still get 24-30 mpg even when driving like a kid.
And; Rear Wheel Drive! REAL SPORTS CARS ARE REAR WHEEL DRIVE!
HI
I HAVE A MOONLIGHT MINI VAN DER PLAS.
I NEED THE 3 PIECE WOODEN DASH.
PLEASE HELP
THANX JACO
I am not the biggest fan of BMW using Brit nostaligia to sell cars however, there is precident for the Triumph cars. Michilotti had designed many cars for Triumph but was busy with other designs when it came time to retool and reform the body for the TR6. Triumph turned to Karman design house..yes Karman Ghia… so with the German connection established I think it would be appropriate for this to happen. I like the idea of the TRX. Let the TR9 be the prototype nomenclature and the production car be the TR X. I would be absolutly opposed to diluting the TRIUMPH name with Mini. The idea of selling them from the same dealerships makes sense and Im sure the salesmen will appreciate an addtional product to sell. I like the idea of simple and entry level. I agree with Skip this car would have to be rear wheel drive and it would need to be similar in feel to the 4/5/6 models. BMW has the tools to bring a car like this to the street and if they do it they should do it justice. I own two TR4’s one TR4A and a 1959 TR3A. Maybe something like the rear of the TR6 smaller but recognizable eyebrows and a smokin inline six. Dual exhausts through the rear valence and the surrey top option. All this riding on top of BMW designed suspension. No Japanese sports car could equal that. This would be the ultimate TR.
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