This edition’s question comes from Chris. While it seems like a rather simple one, I think the answer may be a bit surprising for some MINI owners.
>I’ve got a 2005 Cooper S with the stock 16″ wheels and tires. I’ve always thought the ride was a little harsh but never complained because I just assumed that’s how it had to be with the runflats. Recently I’ve had a chance to test drive a new BMW 330i (with the sport package) which comes with 18″ runflats. I was amazed at the difference ride quality. The 330i handled impeccably and the ride was quite comfortable as compared to the MINI. I know the suspensions are similar in design so why such a huge difference?
That’s a great question Chris. For one the MINI’s shorter wheel-base contributes to the cars less than settled feeling as compared to the BMW. However the bigger issue is that the BMW’s decision to fit runflats tires on the MINI came at the last moment in its original development cycle. Therefore the current suspension was not designed to be used in conjunction with runflats. The newest 3 series on the other hand has a suspension that was engineered from day one to work with runflat tires.
If you switch from runflats to normal tires (as quite a few owners do) you’ll actually be experiencing how the MINI’s engineers originally intended it to feel. And ask anyone who’s done this and I’m sure they’ll tell you it’s a huge difference.
The upcoming R56 and R55 MINIs have been designed from the ground up with runflats in mind so the ride quality should be much more comparable to the new 3 Series.
I recently spent a day with a dealer loaner Cooper S with the standard 16″ rims. Right away I noticed that the ride quality was a notch better than mine with the 17″ S Lites.
I did not know that run flats were added on at the last moment. But I would figure that issue was addressed when MINI re-did the dampers back in 2003 that caused an uproar with the owners.
The bigger the car, the smoother the ride (generally speaking). That’s just science. 🙂
Runflats engineered= softer suspension
No runflats engineered= stif suspension
easy.
Junk the runflats.
It should be noted that BMWs (except for Ms) are engineered to be luxury vehicles and as such the suspension is designed to be more smooth than sporty. (Unlike other companies, BMW just happens to accomplish this while still acheiving great handling). MINIs are designed tobe more sporty and are not marketed as a luxury vehicle so they can be more “harsh.”
IMO MINI’s suspension is the best I’ve ever felt; kind of like it is adhering to the road, yet it still smooths out the jarring shocks. I wouldn’t want it any smoother, even on boston roads! 🙂
However it would be nice to have a remote electronically variable height and responsiveness suspension system. Anyone want to sponsor one for me? 🙂 How ’bout that Bose system that gives you the best of both worlds?
I couldn’t wait to get rid of the runflats because I wanted this “smoother” ride everyone was talking about. I recently switched to 18 inch non runflats. It is smoother but not to the degree I was expecting, now it is possible that I either had too high of expectations or maybe its because its a bigger wheel, I really don’t know. But I will say that I am happier with the 18 inch non run flats vs. the 17 inch runflat’s.
Runflats are they really necessary? I am planning to order a MCS this spring.Can you tell me what type of tires the MCS will be equipped with? Hopefully the best riding ones.
Runflats are somewhat necessary since there is no spare tire. But if you have patience and a good coverage plan (i.e. AAA) then you can ditch the run flats and just get towed to the nearest tire dealer in the event of an emergency.
Suspension is such a toss up, IMO. My wife has a 2003 VW Passat which rides like butter. It is so freaking smooth and is superbly comfortable on long trips. But you pay a price for that and that would be a disconnect from the road. Small curves where I will take the MINI through at 70mph+ make me nervous in the Passat. It isn’t that the car can’t handle it but the “feel” of it makes it seem on the edge.
I know that I prefer the connection to the road my MCS gives me. Yeah the tooth rattling bumps suck but at least I am confident about my car’s limits.
your MCs WILL be equipped with runflats.
MCSs do not come with a spare tire.
>It should be noted that BMWs (except for Ms) are engineered to be luxury vehicles and as such the suspension is designed to be more smooth than sporty.
As the owner of 5 BMWs over the years I would have to disagree with you there. BMWs are driver focused cars, in some ways more than the MINI. And with the optional sport suspension (a mandatory option IMO) they are much more sport than luxury. If you’ve driven a new 330i with the sport package, you’ll be amazed at the ride quality and corner ability. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
I’ll be getting an MCS in a couple of weeks which will have the stock 16″ V-spokes and run flats. Will going to 17″ R99’s w/non-runflats help the harshness or will the benefit of the conventional tire be offset by the larger wheel to put me back where I started on the harshness scale?
I didn’t realize how harsh my MCS (16″ runflats) was until I rode in my father’s S2000. Over a stretch of freeway that I am very well acquainted with, the S2000 absorbed bumps gracefully where my MCS pretty much just slams into them. I figured the harshness was just a trade-off for handling. Obviously the S2000 is a great handling car (with a similar wheelbase to the Mini, I think), so I was struck by how different they felt. I look forward to putting non-runflats on soon to see what difference they make.
>I’ll be getting an MCS in a couple of weeks which will have the stock 16″ V-spokes and run flats. Will going to 17″ R99’s w/non-runflats help the harshness or will the benefit of the conventional tire be offset by the larger wheel to put me back where I started on the harshness scale?
I’ve upsized from 16″ runflats to 17″ non-runflats and found the ride noticably improved. I’ve also upsized from 17″ runflats (on my newer MINI) to 18″ non-runfalts and had the same experience. I highly recommend both.
So is there a suspension mod one could do that would improve the ride w/ runflats while preserving (or improving) handling performance?
I have had 2 MCS’s all with RF’s by different makers. I never minded the so called harshness but after having to deal with some yokel out in bum F*%k Egypt with a flat run flat I did some checking with my local high-end tire dealer.
He said it’s the tires side walls that cause all the trouble not the rim. So I asked him “If you were stuck with a flat RF in Bum F87K Egypt would you…”
A. Be glad you could go 50 miles more to where????
or
B. Have non RF’s so there would be a chance Joe could change or repair it in less than a week.
He choose B.
I choose Dunlop’s 17″ SP Sport Maxx from Tire Rack. I read all the online reviews and so far they seem spot on. I have had them on for two days and love them! Nice & quiet, less taxing ride and about $100 per tire cheaper the the Dunlop SP Sport 9000 DSST’s which only lasted 26,000 miles.
The car’s length relative to ride quality is not to be underestimated here. A car this short will never be a luxuriously comfortable ride if it’s going to corner well at all. I’ve got an Integra Sedan (until next friday when I pick up my MCS), and the ride difference between the Sedan and the Coupe of the same car is night and day. The suspension components are identical, but the extra six inches of wheel-base makes all the difference.
So if you’re looking for a <em>HUGE</em> difference in ride smoothness for a MINI, then the new R55 is probably your best bet.
That said, I love to feel the road and made a point of test driving the wheel/tire combination I was getting on my MINI before I ordered, so I think I’m going to be pretty happy with it.
lTZMTOR – that is a real good point.
i am considering some non RF’s as my next tires….perhaps in a (GASP!) 15″ for my MCS.
Sure, i know that sounds like a wheel for a trailer around here…. 🙂
I have an ’05 MCS with the Dunlop Runflats and I just bought my wife a new ’06 MCS and it came with the Pirellis. There is a noticeble difference (albiet not gigantic) in the ride between the two tires. The Pirellis seem to be smoother and more forgiving, while the Dunlops seem to be more harsh.
If I were to replace my Dunlops with new runflats (which is a decision I have not yet made) I would probably get the Pirelli’s.
MINIs built prior to May 2003 had an even stiffer ride.
>MINIs built prior to May 2003 had an even stiffer ride.
Bonus points for anyone who can find the original post about it on MotoringFile 🙂
<blockquote>your MCs WILL be equipped with runflats.</blockquote>Still not standard for 2007. From the <a href="http://motoringfile.com/2006/07/27/minis-r56-official-preview/" rel="nofollow">Official MINI Preview</a>:<blockquote>The MINI Cooper comes as standard on 15-inch light-alloy wheels running on 175/65 R 15 low-profile tyres… Benefiting from runflat technology, all 16- and 17-inch tyres offer superior safety in an emergency…</blockquote>
I have an ’05 MCS with the R99 17″ wheels and Pirelli runflats. I also have a set of 16″ wheels with Continental winter tires, which we need here in the Great White North. The ride is smoother with the winter tires, but there is a lot of torque steer under rapid acceleration, and of course the handling is not as sharp. The runflats have better grip, but they do nibble at road irregularities. However, the car is more stable at speed, again to be expected since winter tires are not designed for ultimate handling. However, both wheel/tire combinations offer a better ride than the smaller all season tires did on my previous MINI, a 2002 MC. I look forward to the improvements on the new model.
My ’02 MCS had some Pirelli RF’s on it… gone in 18,000 miles. I did like the ride and cornering over the Dunlop SP 9000’s but this new Dunlop Sport Maxx is awsome………. so far.
an M3 dosent exactly have the best ride quality as compared to the mini. they both have sport suspension, the 330i is a luxury car. nuff said.
<blockquote>Bonus points for anyone who can find the original post about it on MotoringFile :)</blockquote>
Oh, you mean <a href="https://www.motoringfile.com/2003/05/14/JackPitneyRespondsToTheRecentJDPowerSurveyResults" rel="nofollow">this one</a> that references <a href="http://www.cars.com/news/stories/050903_storyb_dn.jhtml?page=story&aff=national" rel="nofollow">this interview</a>?
🙂
I believe we have a winner.
“Engineering” the suspension for runflats or conventional tires is just about damper valving and spring rates, right? Seems an easy enough thing to change after the initial release. I theory, the JCW Suspension was designed around 18″ 205-40 runflats. I’ve done more than 10k miles on mine with the same size in conventional tires. I think I likely would have suffered kidney failure by now if I had done that same distance on runflats.
Wasn’t the SS+ made even more compliant in ’05, hence the need for the JCW suspension kit?
I have to agree that BMWs have an amazing combo of sport and ride comfort. No one else can do it. What amazed me is how they got the MINI to ride as well as it does on a short wheelbase. It has a firm sporty ride as it should, but rarely jarring and always responsive. When I drive my parents 325i or when I drove the E90 325i, I noticed very little ride difference. The MINI is simply more chuckable b/c it’s small and without a big ole’ I6 out front. I do have non-runflats, but only b/c of replacement cost- when buying my MC two years ago, I knew it’d be easier down the road to pay $80/tire versus $240/tire. I’ve driven a few MINIs over bad roads with the runflats and they were fine, with little to no difference.
If someone thinks the MINI suspension is too harsh, then they probably could use a different car.
>Wasn’t the SS+ made even more compliant in ‘05, hence the need for the JCW suspension kit?
The JCW suspension is actually more compliant in some ways than the SS+ suspension.
Has the SS+ remained the same from ’02 to ’06, or have there been tweaks over the years?
I looked into adding the JCW sus. & my SA said that it wouldn’t be an improvement for an ’03, and that it made the biggest difference on ’05 or newer cars.
I love how my MINI handles even if it drives very stiff. I always thought of it as a sports feel. My only problem is when I just feel like cruising and not speed like I always do especially here in SF it’s annoying when you’re driving on a bumpy, filled with cracks and potholes road and there’s a couple of them here in the city. At that time I wish my MINI was a bit softer ride. I always wonder if I should switch to a nonrunflat tire to make it smoother but a little worried if it can handle the beating of a bad city road. Oh well, my tires are still great so I’ll wait til it needs to be replace then I’ll decide. Hopefully this great site can help me pick one that’s good for me.
“Still not standard for 2007. From the Official MINI Preview:”
He was referencing the MCS sorry my S wasn’t caps.
You can have your cake and eat it too! I have the H-sport springs with the Koni FSD shocks. The car handles much better than the OE set up and the ride over bumpy roads feels very much like a 3 series BMW. Several of us in L.A have gone this route and are very happy. Scott at Central Coast Coopers is the local expert regarding this combo – He has done numerous intalls and has this on his own MINI.
<blockquote>The ride is smoother with the winter tires, but there is a lot of torque steer under rapid acceleration, and of course the handling is not as sharp.</blockquote>
“a lot”? I thought the MINI had equal length drive shafts?
>Has the SS+ remained the same from ‘02 to ‘06, or have there been tweaks over the years?
In May of 2003 there was a change that made the suspension a bit more comfortable over broken surfaces.
>I looked into adding the JCW sus. & my SA said that it wouldn’t be an improvement for an ‘03, and that it made the biggest difference on ‘05 or newer cars.
I’ve had an ’02 MINI with the SS+ for three years, a ’05 for 2 year and I can tell you from first hand experience that the JCW Suspension is an improvement over both. The ’02 was unbearable over roads in Chicago. The ’05 is better but the JCW suspension felt better set-up for the car. It allowed for more power to be put down and for great control coming out of corners. It’s a fantastic trade-off for those looking for an upgrade to a daily driver.
There may be equal length driveshafts, but with this tire/wheel combo there is torque steer, which surprised me as well, but I think the reason is the winter tires. Their sidewalls are much softer than the runflats so the car feels like it is pulling from side to side under hard acceleration. I guess the phrase “a lot” should be taken in the context of driving with the runflats vs. the winter tires. There is none of this side to side pulling with the runflats but with the winter tires it is noticeable, but probably not as bad as in many FWD cars.
While on the tire subject, is there anything fishy about this seemingly smoking deal on the tire rack’s goodyear eagle F1 GsD3 215/45/WR17 for $88 each? pleae let me know if I’m making a big mistake, if not, I’m ordering 4 in the am – mounted to ASA AR1 wheels. Thanks!
link:
<a href="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compare1.jsp?width=215%2F&ratio=45&diameter=17&startIndex=0&search=true&pagelen=20&pagenum=1&pagemark=1&manufacturer=Goodyear&RunFlat=All&x=62&y=5" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compare1.jsp?width=215%2F&ratio=45&diameter=17&startIndex=0&search=true&pagelen=20&pagenum=1&pagemark=1&manufacturer=Goodyear&RunFlat=All&x=62&y=5</a>
The runflat tyre technology/design has also changed in the 5 or so years that they have been used on MINI.
Early tyres had very stiff sidewall construction which did make for a harsh ride, since then the makers have refined the way they work so they still run flat but have more compliance. Very early runflats were not much better than solid rubber really.
No one has mentioned it yet, but another benny of switching to non-runflats, is being able to get rid of those VERY heavy run-flat rims. Improves gas milage and performance.
run-flat rims?
hey amigos I own a 02 MCS with 75k and still over 217 bhp yes I am the test bunny for mini-Madness and RennTech(oops!! Harmut I put you out on the street) like BZZbm I also bought the Koni FSD and beleieve me you the car drives like a Cadillac and it suppreses the bumps, living here in the island of Puerto Rico where you dont have potholes but CRATERS it is a must and the fact that the local Mini dealer goes at least 10 yes 10 pairs of strut mounts a month so you know what i am talking about. I have no complaints about them, about the Dunlop Run Flats I have used 2 sets of them and opted for the Goodyear runfltas they ride smoother than the Dunlops but give in on heavy cornering.My advice try the Koni FSD and beleive me you wont be bitching no more about the Mini suspension.
Mark, you can put non-runflat tires on any of the standard rims, and some of the runflats are lighter than the normal tires!
Tsukiji:
Run-flat rims have a special bead-edge that keeps the runflat tire on the rim, not “popping” the bead or coming off the rim when running flat. You can put regular tires on a run-flat rim, but you cannot put run-flat tires on a regular rim.
Blalor:
Yes, that’s true, but what I was getting at, is the stock S-lites weigh in at almost 50 lbs apiece with tire, while regular rims with non-runflats weigh in at about 30 lbs each. That 80lb weight reduction makes a big difference.
Dr Bo –
I put those exact tires on my ’04 S a month ago – no issues at all. According to my GPS the speedo is actually more accurate that with the pirelli RF..
I’m impressed with the ride quality and grip levels..plus the F1’s make less road noise
Jim(S-Thing)
I guessed we all been had by BMW from day one?
I owned a 1970 Mini Cooper that I drove around the streets of Boston as a student, and a Mini Moke I had in Sydney during graduate studies. In both cases the handling was excellent without sending me to the Chiropractor. I don’t understand why BMW can’t do any better than Austin.
Now I drive my Cooper S on Puerto Rico roads. Now the folks here are not considered particularly interested in maintenance during good times, and during a rough economic period, well forget it.
I also drive a ’06 Odyssey minivan and ’02 Passat Wagon when more space is required, and even then, the roads are an incredible challenge.
In the Mini, I always keep my seatbelt tight. Don’t want to get knocked out hitting the roof after traversing a rough patch of asphalt.
But my real worry is breaking a wheel or destroying a tire, but that hasn’t happened yet.
Honestly taking my mini out is a teeth rattling experience, but exhilarating. The bouncing around is so intense, I can’t believe replacing the run-flats would make much difference, and besides after a few miles of being thrown around the cabin, it just makes me want to get on it! And I do. It’s a fun car to drive, and even though the ride is very rough, I always assumed that was the price for the fantastic handling – that is as long as I can stay behind the steering wheel.
I am also afraid that changing to something other than the runflats will deminish the handling. Any views?
Hey Axel-
I would like to see what’s involved getting Koni’s for my ’05 Cooper S, here in Puerto Rico. You can contact me at <a href="mailto:youngsota@gmail.com">youngsota@gmail.com</a>.
Thanks.
<blockquote>I guessed we all been had by BMW from day one?</blockquote>
Had? How so? The runflats do EXACTLY what they were designed to do… allow you to continue to drive on a flat tire, long enough (in most cases) to get you to a safe place.
The rims were designed to support the runflat tires. That doesn’t mean you CAN’T put non-runflats on them, only that they had runflats “in mind” with the design.
I fail to see how ANYONE has “been had” by BMW. Perhaps some poorly informed dealers have given wrong information, but that isn’t BMW corporate speaking. Humans are bound to make mistakes by their very nature… and yes, some dealers are scrupulous and may lie to your face… but again, that has nothing to do with the actual design, nor actual words spoken by BMW corporate.
<blockquote>There may be equal length driveshafts, but with this tire/wheel combo there is torque steer, which surprised me as well, but I think the reason is the winter tires. Their sidewalls are much softer than the runflats so the car feels like it is pulling from side to side under hard acceleration. I guess the phrase “a lot†should be taken in the context of driving with the runflats vs. the winter tires. There is none of this side to side pulling with the runflats but with the winter tires it is noticeable, but probably not as bad as in many FWD cars.</blockquote>
Dave–
Torque steer is a characteristic that can be designed out of a front suspension, typically by use of equal-length drive shafts. It is not something that would be absent with one pair of tires and present with another pair.
Many winter tires (especially certain sub-models of the Bridgestone Blizzak) have tall, independent tread blocks that can cause disconcerting handling characteristics.
“Torque steer” means something very specific, and it wouldn’t just appear like you described. I’m not saying you didn’t experience something odd under acceleration with your winter tires, but it almost certainly wasn’t torque steer. This is likely just confusion about terminology.
Cheers,
Jason
P.S. If I recall correctly, <em>Automobile Magazine</em> thought the Blizzak WS-50s fitted to their four seasons test car made the handling downright dangerous.
The cost of replacing worn run-flats is quite high. With ordinary tyres on my cars I have never had a flat so I guess I dont need them, espeically when you can get breakdown assistance in the package. As well you are not offically allowed to repair a puncture in a run-flat tyre – another way to part us from our money. All they are is a cost saving to the factory not having to supply an extra spare wheel.
I will always go for a real spare wheel – which I think is an optional extra.
Low profile tyres have stronger sidewalls and less flex.
Greg:
Run flats are repairable as long as the hole is not in the sidewall. I’ve had several repaired, with no issues at all. There are options for the S with no spare – go the Europeon route and carry a temporary repair kit:
<a href="http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/conticomfortkit/index.jsp" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/conticomfortkit/index.jsp</a>
or do what some MINI owners do for road trips, pick up an inexpensive Miata spare (fits the MINI perfectly) from aMazda dealer or on ebay, and carry that in the boot.
My 06 MCS with SS+ came with 17″ S-spokes and Goodyear RS-A all-season run flats. For the winter I swapped them with 16″ SSR-Comp-C and Dunlop Winter Sport M3 non-RFs.
Even though the winter wheels are 1″ smaller and the tires are non-RF, there is barely a noticeable difference in ride quality.
The lighter wheels and tires do make a noticeable difference when accelerating.
<blockquote>“BMW’s decision to fit runflats tires on the MINI came at the last moment in its original development cycle. Therefore the current suspension was not designed to be used in conjunction with runflats”</blockquote>
I don’t recall ever hearing about this before, funny how it’s becoming public knowledge during the R56 introduction!
Paul
Jim:
Thanks for the feedback on your experience with the Goodyear F1’s. I placed my order through Tirerack this morning 😉
Wow, what a huge difference. Put the goodyears on yesterday. I would have done this much sooner If I had any idea how much it completes the car. stickier handling, no tramlining and much more compliant ride. tons quieter. I make a 80 mile round trip to a rural towm daily. over the concrete expansion joints its much more settled. in the curves its just as confident but less harsh. Wow, love my mini even more now!
HELLO, I AM SERIOUSLY CONTEMPLATING A NEW 2008 MINI, NON ‘S’ WITH AN AUTOMATIC TRANS. I HAVE SPECIFIED ALL SEASON TIRES. I WOULD LIKE A SMOOTH A RIDE AS POSSIBLE WITH MINIMUM CABIN NOISE. SOME OF THE RESPONDENTS HAVE SUGGESTED GOODYEAR F-1’S, OTHERS HAVE MENTIONED DUNLOP ‘SP’ SPORT MAX. ANY HELP OR ADVICE WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
STEVEN