Times Online reviews the Factory R56 JCW
Andrew Frankel from the London Times took the factory R56 JCW car on a first drive recently and was not very keen about this latest hot entry from Oxford:
>”This could just be one of the most exciting cars to hit the road since . . . well, since the original Mini Cooper handbrake-turned onto the scene. Sadly, though, the reality is anything but. Instead of being the best sporting Mini ever created, it is the least appealing I’ve driven.”
And he goes on…
>”There are a few small problems you could overlook: the interior is barely distinguishable from that of the standard Cooper S, the new badges look cheap, and in the quest for more visual “attitudeâ€, the body kit spoils the Mini’s pert lines.
>These, however, are mere niggles. The real issue is that this Cooper leaves a smile missing from your face. What Issigonis and Cooper’s original concept cracked so successfully was the blend of modest power with maximum thrills. Unfortunately, the Cooper JCW doesn’t continue that formula.”
+ Mini Cooper John Cooper Works / Times of London
I test drove it. I think the critics are being too harsh on it. The brakes are incredible and I like how the engine responds, unfortunately I didn’t get to drive on good B-roads. I don’t think I would ever get one because of the price, I think Cooper S in six speed manual is the best value out of all of the line-up and allows you to actually bury the throttle, which I didn’t get to on the JCW. I feel guilty overrevving an engine that is in it’s break in period.
Granted… I’ve drank the kool-aid and have my own opinions on John Cooper Works… but really – does this guy even LIKE cars??!
The JCW car has received some mixed reviews by motor journalist. Although they forget that it actually will be used as a daily car and not used to race to work or to the local supermarket as when they test drive the car checking the limits.
The only thing they could be right about is that the car should had been more distinguishable inside and outside compared to the standard MCS.
whos Frank?
Anyone who get’s this car and doesn’t purchase the JCW suspension is mad. The sport, much less the standard suspension is completely inadequete to handle the power/torque.
I had the stage one JCW and with the JCW suspension.I had little or none of the torque steer that terrified me in my initial test drive of a stock S with sport suspension.
I imagine one can create a suspension via aftermarket that equals or surpasses the JCW suspension for less $.
Power without control equals trouble. Years ago I test drove a Mercedes SLK AMG with full intentions of buying it (349 hp in a small two seater!)until I took a curve! Yikes!!!
I drove it at the Rose Bowl during MTTS. The course was too tight to get a real feel for the handling, power but compared to my 2004 MCS it was light years ahead power wise. I will say the steering was rather ghostly and not as direct input as mine.
Actually I think this was a decent review, I agree that Mini has lost a tad of the feeling of the classics. They are still solid cars for sure, after driving the JCW Mini I thought this car is pretty decent but the writer hit the nail on the head for what I felt. The torque on the car makes it a bit of a handful to deal with and that to keep it predictable and smooth you end up actually using less throttle. I personally think they should have mapped the torque curve a bit shallower at the low revs to deal with a majority of the problems. Like STIGG I found the steering to be ghostly.
A solid car for sure, the GP is still the better car for me. Between the visceral nature of the sounds of the car and the handling and power I can pretty well say that I think Mini should have made a better attempt with this car. Also still find the center stack on the interior hideous all in all.
who’s Frank
…sorry but this guy should only test massage seats or comfort underwear (you know what i mean). He doesn’t know anything about cars. I
Does anyone at Mini read this site? Ghostly steering in other words meaning loss of go cart feel. Entire reason why I went back to 1st gen. Hey Mini! Wake up and FIX IT! I can live with the looks…..sorta
ghostly steering – such baloney, and all you R53 jockeys believe it…
Well to me lavardera the feeling with the steering on the R56 has lost a little of the feel to me. Don’t get me wrong there are things that are better about the R56 but the feeling of the steering isn’t one of those. Will have to look back but I think even Gabe stated at one time the steering isn’t as communicative. I have drive several R56’s including the JCW Mini and can say that I think the feel on all of them are not horrible but definitely not as good as the feeling on the R53 imo.
My 2009 JCW is my 4th MINI (03 MCS, 05 MCS, and 07 MCS, and my favorite of them all.
This car is solid, quick, and handles great – and, I’ve got the factory sport suspension.
I don’t feel any of the torque steer nonsense constantly being spewed in the press and on this site. Then again, this is my daily driver, and I didn’t buy it to go beat it up at the track, or drive like a complete idiot on city streets. I bought it to have fun to and from work and around town on the weekends. Geez, the whiny complaints get tiring around here, especially from folks that have barely driven this car, if at all.
Us R53 “jockeys” believe it because its true. The R56 is definitely more refined/civilized, but there are things the R53 does better, and steering feel is definitely one of them. The R56 is still a good car, and it “points and shoots” much better than the majority of the cars out there, but its not as direct as the R53. At some point you’re just going to have to get over the fact that some of us prefer the R53. I can perfectly understand why someone would prefer the R56 and I totally respect that.
I think the R56 is a good car, its just not for me. I’ll hang on to my R53 JCW until the next generation, and I hope at some point there will be a limited edition MINI with the GP’s spirit at some point. But I’m getting more and more skeptical we’ll see BMW throw us a bone like that again….
2X R53 JCW owner, now an R56 JCW owner: the new car is really very good. More a mini BMW than a BMW Mini. All in all I’ll stick w/ the R56 and only miss the superior steering inputs of the R53. As a long distance hauler & daily driver the R56 is hands down a better choice. As for the JCW bits I’m feeling happy w/ my choice and even getting great mileage. Take it to the track if you want to see how good it really is!
I never thought I would go back to buying a Mini after the R53 since I was seriously considering the 135i BMW as a next car. But once I tried the JCW 09 I loved it! I dropped my order on the 135i and went with the JCW09. Can’t wait to get this car. My one time drive around convinced me that it was fantastic for me to mediate issues of consumption, looks and at the same time have the thrills of sport driving .
I heard that there was a factory recall for the wrong fitment of 16 inch brake discs. Which brings me to ask has this car got uprated calipers?
Yes, the calipers are upgraded to four pistons. The brake discs aren’t 16 inches though; you’d never fit a rotor that large on the MINI….
Hey – the comment in the above posts was “ghostly steering” and I still say its BS. I totally understand if you like your old cooper better, but the post I followed was suggesting that Mini should take some lesson from the “ghostly” comment, to which I also call BS.
And I still want to know – who is Frank?
I think the post has trimmed the most negative quotes from the review, and predictably the most critical readers pile on the JCW. Not up to MF standards I’d say.
Frank aka C4.
I am an official contributor to MF.
Hope this helps.
Lavardara. As an owner of four Minis I feel qualified to restate my opinion that stock suspension on an R53 is superior in feeling to JCW suspension in my short lived ’07 JCW with JCW suspension. By a mile. This seems to be the majority opinion by those who have owned both. No need to get outchy.
I’ve owned, driven and reviewed both back to back. There is clearly a difference and any car with the JCW suspension is superior to one without. My r56 with JCW suspension ran rings around the r53 I reviewed with it back to back.
Gabe as a owner of both a well modified R53 and your JCW how do you think the steering inputs stack up, it could just be me but as good as the new car is I still don’t find it as crisp as the R53 was.
In my personal opinion, the steering in the second gen MINI is very good, very direct and a pleasure to drive, but, and the big but, is that it still lacks the precision and road feel feedback that you had with the R53 steering setup. I think there are a couple of issues to consider:
First, the steering system in the R55/R56 MINI is fully electric/electronic (You no longer have a power steering fluid reservoir). This was done to reduce weight and improve system reliability in the long term. However, historically all electric power steering system have suffered from a common fault to a lesser or more degree: Lack of steering feedback and/or precision afforded by older hydraulic/mechanic setups. Don’t get me wrong, I think the electric steering system in the new cars is one of the best in the market today but is not there yet in terms of feedback and feel.
Second, the system used in the R50, R52 and R53 MINIs was Electro-Hydraulic. While the system was not belt driven by the engine (To help save gas and preserve engine power), it still used power steering fluid like a traditional system with the difference that it was driven by an electric motor instead of the engine. This is probably why (And the experts are welcome to chime in) the steering setup in the 1st gen cars was regarded as being more communicative and precise. When you drive a R53 the steering wheel lets you know every little detail of the road surface like the car is “talking” to you every step of the way.
Of course, suspension tuning has much to do with it. But at the end of the day, the R53 steering feels more “natural’ in the hands of the enthusiast as where as the new electric setup feels more artificial and isolated by comparison (Even with the sport button turned on).
Last, I also would like to add that it is a good thing to present here in MF not only positive product reviews but also counterpoints to those opinions so everyone gets the opportunity to see both sides of the coin and form a more educated opinion.
My suggestion: Take a test drive and let us know whether you agree or disagree with the review above.
Again, I’m responding to the characterization of the steering as “ghostly”. Electric or electric/hydraulic, both systems provide great steering feel by any standard. If the R56 is ghostly then the R53 must be as well.
As far as the post goes MF has a history of posting good news as well as bad and I have no problem with that. But when the contributor quotes the most negative language and also happens to be somebody who was irrationally biased against the R56 on intro and even against MF itself for giving it good reviews, this post comes across as more of the same. I think its not up to MF’s past standards and your going to have to work to win me over Frank.
I’m not sure why all the griping about the quoted text — the full article is linked for any to read, and the quoted text does in fact reflect the article writer’s overall impression of the car.
(Frank could’ve also quoted the last paragraph in the article if he just wanted to highlight negatives.)
I’ll lay off.
This debate has now entered it’s third year and it’s still being suggested that it’s our imagination. I dropped $40k on my ’07 so believe me I wanted to like the R56. All it took was a spin in a stock ’05 to make me switch back. I think C4’s analysis was great and simply demonstrates that it all a matter of what driving experience one enjoys. The R53 mimics the original “feel” of the classic incarnation. The R56 may even outhandle it on the track but nontheless has lost the traditional “go cart” sensation. If that’s not an issue to someone that’s fine. I only join this discussion by throwing in my opinion. Not to say someone is wrong. To each his own.
I just got my 09 JCW yesterday. I’m respecting the break-in procedure so I haven’t revved it up or applied full throttle. This reviewer is nuts. This car Rocks!! One of the best cars I’ve ever driven. Yes it does leave a smile on your face. Nothing is missing. And I’m really glad that the JCW package is subtle and not very distinguishable from the MCS. After day 1 I say I LOVE driving this car!!
Ray
The two things I miss most about my old R53 are the noise and the steering feel. In my view my R56 still has good steering compared to the majority of cars out there, but it feels more digital to the R56’s analogue, with or without the sport button on.
I really like my R56, but I loved my R53.
Great to hear your liking your JCW Ray, as much as you like the look of the car being stealthy I can understand however for me personally the GP is still hands down the best car Mini has made to date. To each their own though and hope your JCW keeps a smile on your face.
Exactly what constitutes the “the traditional “go cart†sensation” is open to interpretation. I’m baffled by the efforts to draw a strong line here. These long dissections of the subtle differences always break out whenever the topic is mentioned. The difference is not as great as you’d want to believe.
Ever driven/owned a R53?
C4 the very same question entered my mind before I even read your post. Again, regardless of what it does on the track it’s not the same. Not a single person who’s owned both will deny it. Someone cue the Everly Brothers….”you’ve lost-that go cart feeling….”
Right Revhed?
No, I’ve not owned an R53. I’ve lived with an R50 for 5 days and about 300 miles of highway and neighborhood driving, same roads I drive everyday. I think the R50 was actually a better comparison for my car since they both had the same stock wheel/tire size. Is the steering in a cooper any different? Would a longer term have shed more light. I don’t think so – it was a pretty good test drive. Don’t get me wrong. I loved the car and actually made an offer on it to replace our other car. But the steering did not strike me as superior, in fact that never crossed my mind. The R50 was not a loaner beater. It had 900 miles on it, less than my own. There may have been more feedback from the R50 but if there was I did not notice it. My primary impression was that it did not respond to input as quickly as my car. Not much difference but that is what stood out to me.
“…now it’s gone, gone, gone”
Whoa oh oh.
So when can we expect the MotoringFile review of the JCW?
The steering ratio of the R50 Cooper was different from that on the R53 S. Also there is a difference whether the Cooper you drove had 15″ tires/wheels (175/65 R15 OEM rubber) or 16″ runflats 195/55 R16 V87 OEM rubber. The Cooper came with the standard “Sport Suspension” and for an extra $500 it could be upgraded to the “Sport Suspension Plus” which was standard in the R53 S. The R53 came std with 16″ runflats 195/55 R16 V87 and 17″ 205/45 R17 rubber was optional.
I still think you need to spend some quality time on a R53 S for a better basis of comparison to your R56 S.
The steering ratio in the R55/R56 MINI is 14.0:1
The steering ratio in the R53 S MINI was 13.18 (Same as the ’06 GP)
I am looking up the ratio for the R50 Cooper which was 12.8 or thereabouts.
As I said the R50 I had was equipped with the same wheel size and tires size as my car. It had the option package that included the upgraded sport suspension and tires/wheels. I’ve drive the R53 (17″ wheels) before as well, back to back with the R50 (upgraded to 16″ wheels), and on short exposure the felt much the same. Perhaps there is a difference in ratio but feedback should be the same by your logic.
We are talking about subtle differences. But calling the steering in the R56 “ghostly” would be like me calling the steering in the R50 “unresponsive”. And that was my original point, and its where I think commenters here just show their prejudice. I’m just calling them out on it. Picking apart these details again means little. Its been done before.
Hey! I thought you were “laying off” 🙂
This R56 vs R53 rap will never die. There should be a site devoted to the topic.
I will say that a little heat in exchanges does make MF fun to watch. I’m adding anything else for fear of becoming redundant. Well…maybe two words,
poltergeist steering
Whoops! I meant to say “not” adding anything else. Of course, I did anyway.
BTW, my car has the same steering feel as a ZR 1. Well no, I never drove one but did drive a Cavalier for five days. They’re both Chevys so that’s the same right?
I’ll give you “ghostly” is an overstatement, as has been said before, the R56 steering is better than most cars out there. But I think on the other hand your minimizing the differences–the systems are significantly different, and accordingly feel much, much different. With my R53 on the I can feel everything in the road–every undulation, every texture change–and it really helps on the track. The steering is more direct as well. Its not that the R56 is bad, and I’ll agree that ghostly isn’t the best description, but it does result in a loss of feel inherent to a fully electronic system. Its not quite as direct, and a bit of the point and shoot is gone. It feels more refined, and thats great for day to day driving, but not so good for the track…
The JCW is IMO hands-down the best all-around MINI ever set forth since launch. The Clubman is all the better over the hatch if you require a little more rear legroom. Being in the seat of every variant for varying lengths of time since launch I can say without hesitation it is a versatile daily-driver that never fails to make you grin inside & out. When I walk to my garage to jump in the giddy “kid-in-the-go-kart” feeling has never been so compelling.
Maybe it would take the shine off some of the fun you have at the track but I think you will find many others willing to line up and vouch that its more than a little fun at the track, and certainly not in the category of “not so good”. As far as feedback from the road, steering is just one of the paths by which that feedback reaches your body. There is no lack of feedback in the R56.
I’m tired of this – why don’t you 53 fans take it away and make up any kind of wild characterization you want about how compromised the R56 is. Your own private Idaho – go to town.
Relax, Lavardera. Sometimes the truth hurts. The beauty of it is that we are free to either accept it or reject it.
I own both generations. And each has lots of positives as well as negatives. I don’t get all worked up when I read that my R55 is not the pinnacle of perfection or my R53 is the purest rendition of the car.
This is just a car. Not your wife or girlfriend.
Take a deep breath (May be 20 deep breaths) and go out and enjoy your car. If you love your R56 S that what it counts. Who cares what a bunch of “jockeys” have to say on an internet message board?
If you’re “tired” of other peoples opinions perhaps you should spend time reading other sites where opinions are censored (I’mafacist.com). Or where yours is the only one (Lavardera.com, mmmmmm -interesting). Or maybe turn off the computer and go out and buy some tissues.
C4 is correct in stating the truth hurts, especially when stated by someone who has owned both cars and is actually qualified to make judgement.
Hey, I was mad too when I figured out my $40,000 mistake. Just glad I fixed it.
Kevin, I’d respectfully disagree with you–I’d still say the GP is hands down the best MINI yet, wish I would have bought one.
Is the R56 fun on the track? Absolutely. I never said it wasn’t. But there IS more feedback in the R53 than the R56. The R56 has more feedback than most cars, but its not as good in this regard as the R53. Is the R56 compromised? In certain areas, WITH RESPECT TO THE R53, yes, it is. For most people, this won’t be an issue, for me its important. As a daily driver, the R56 wins, hands down,and this is what the majority of MINI users buy the car for. There are many improvements over the R53 on the R56, and BMW succeeded in spades in making the car more refined, and thusly accessible to more people.
The R53 is a better car for me. The R56 is a good car too, and I can totally understand why someone would prefer it over the R53. But like it or not, there are certain things the R53 does better–these may or may not be important to you, and the differences may be minimal to you, but to many of us (admittedly a minority of MINI owners), they are significant; they make a difference in how we drive the car.
It seems we’re being accused of bashing the R56–the truth is far from it. It certainly does many things better than the R53. But conversely, the flip side of the argument is apparently taboo–the fact that in certain areas the R53 is better.
The bottom line is the perfect MINI has yet to be made. It was my great hope the JCW would be that car–that it would take all of the strengths of the R56, and bring back some of the strengths of the R53. That didn’t quite happen. That’s not to say the JCW isn’t a great car; it is, and if I didn’t have my current R53 It’d be a tough choice between that and a 2006 MINI S and RMW aftermarket modifications.
We’ll see what happens with the next generation…
>Gabe as a owner of both a well modified R53 and your JCW how do you think the steering inputs stack up, it could just be me but as good as the new car is I still don’t find it as crisp as the R53 was.
The steering feel is about 10% better in the R50/R53. The net is that the R56 can feel slightly more vague in some situations. However it’s not a huge difference in most situations and most people wouldn’t even notice.
relax yourself. I’m not upset at all. I have no problem with differing opinions – again I just choose to call out the ridiculous ones. Its just tiring, boring, repetitive to always confront the ones that are most far out, and especially the hubris of calling them Truth. Gabe has, and always has had the most level head about these. That’s the truth and it does not hurt at all. That’s why I read and comment here and will continue to read and comment here.
from your computer in Idaho
Well I for one can say that the differences in opinion are one of the things that makes reading the comments at Motoringfile worthwhile. I consider debate within the Mini community to be a very good thing. While I may not agree with another viewpoint it always allows me to see an issue from another viewpoint, which in my small world view is golden.
Debate and differing points of view are positive traits of any thriving community. However, in my experience, there have been instances where a different point of view is not welcomed within the MINI community.
I have seen this also, although I have seem more people in the Mini community to be open to opinions other than their own than most any group of fans I’ve been around.
Did get my first chance to run with a new JCW Mini today with my GP. Very similar cars in many regards. Not sure if its my comfort and previous experience on the track but the GP was quicker and seemed much better through the corners. Hope whoever was driving the JCW had as big of a grin on their face as I did mine!
The new JCW just looks way to plain in my view, although a very capable car even to me at first I thought it was just another R56 S on the road. If I were a little bit further down the street it would have just been another Mini (not like that is a bad thing). Think one thing that really makes sense to me is the numbers of times people that are even moderately knowledgeable about the Mini brand can pick up that there is something special about the GP. One thing I observed though was the JCW was anything but flat through the corners. All in all I think the new car is decent just more than a little short of what I think it should have been.
Wow this thing won’t die! Yes differing opinions do heat things up around here. It’s amusing when even though countless of posts (over two and a half years) stating one opinion backed by Gabe and countless owners of both generations(some of which have offered up extensive mechanical evidence) are still called “ridiculous” by one deluded person.
“Tired, boring, are repetitive” are words used by one who can’t acknowledge they are wrong. When one admits that he/she has never even DRIVEN an R53 much less OWNED one, that invalidates the veracity of their opinion instantly.
How many times does one have to read it stated by people who would know to realize it’s true? The cars feel very different. I noticed it as soon as I took delivery. And I had the vaunted JCW suspension. How can someone who never even drove both cars argue?
Time to give up the “ghost”.
Gabes statements support my position. Spin as you wish, you are the one that is wrong and deluding yourself.
Lets try a positive tact instead of knocking heads. Can we all agree to Gabes statement?:
<blockquote>The steering feel is about 10% better in the R50/R53. The net is that the R56 can feel slightly more vague in some situations. However it’s not a huge difference in most situations and most people wouldn’t even notice.</blockquote>
If you guys still want to call that “ghostly” be my guest. Then is my privilege to call that opinion ridiculous. Then we’re all happy.
Guess my issue lavardera is the 10% that Gabe was talking about is during times like track days. On the street doing the daily slog don’t expect most people would notice much difference. I wouldn’t call the steering Ghostly as much as a tad unpredictable and uncommunicative while pushing the car. Still handles and feels better than a lot of cars but lacks the pin-point feel that I get with my R53. Think generally both are fine cars just like the steering feel of the R53 better on the track or autocross personally as it allows me a better feel for the corner.
I personally wouldn’t call it “ghostly”, and I’ve said (and agree) the R56 steering is better than most cars out there. I’d also agree that in daily driving the diffrerence is negligible. But on the track, the R53 steering feel is definitely more precise–the R56 is more vague than I’d like. Suspension upgrades may go a long way to significantly improving that (I haven’t driven the JCW on the track, just an R56).
There are some things on the R56 on the track that are very nice–the low down torque for example. On the other hand, the R53 feels more spritely when you get higher up in the RPMs.
This is why I was hoping the JCW would be a combo of the best of the R53, and the best of the R56. The “perfect” JCW in my book would have had a true LSD, stiffer suspension, more high end torque, a bit more horsepower, and a look to set it apart from the standard S. I think many of us were hoping for a track ready beast–something more “M” like, but it didn’t quite happen. But who knows, maybe there will be an R56 GP like variant in the near future, with a major MINI anniversary on the horizon…
I am right with you on the hope for another GP cctl. I would love to pick up a next gen GP to park next to GP0509 in my garage. Pretty sure nothing like this is anywear near any drawing boards. Betting Mini will go bling over performance if there is a special anniversary model. Knowing how Mini has been approaching the game so far it will likely be a soccer mom edition r60 😉
The only thing that I’ll agree is that regardless of what is said this will never end. I won’t mention any names but someone on this thread needs professional help. Oh, let’s see if I can predict the response, “no YOU do!”. I refuse to even look here again. I am OUT.
Lavadera:
<blockquote>I’ll lay off.</blockquote>
Could you give us an ETA?
Funny, in reference to the Times reviewer, I drove a JCW today and came away feeling the chassis could definitely handle more power, haha.
On the steering debate, I do agree the R53 steering is better. BMW really nailed it there. That said, the R56 steering is still damn good and only those with a lot of time behind the wheel of an R53 should have cause to complain.
As an overall package there’s no doubt in my mind the R56s are better cars. They may lack that edge at ten tenths over the R53s, but for the other 99% of the time there’s no question the newer MINIs are better. Well, character provided by supercharger whine aside!
Honestly, who cares how well a car handles on the track FFS? What’s the percentage of people who’ll ever take their MINI/Cooper S/JCW anywhere near one? Minute, I would guess.
And to the heroic, track-driving GP owners who justify their compromised car by talking about its track prowess, if you wanted to go racing around tracks and have the ultimate in steering feel, why didn’t you buy a Lotus Elise?
(Former, unimpressed road-going GP owner)