Roughly six months ago BMW and Fiat signed a memorandum of understanding that seemed as if it would lead to key cooperation in both developing and selling new cars. In it Friedrich Eichiner (member of the Board of Management of BMW AG responsible for Corporate and Brand Development) said this:
>“We are currently examining with the Fiat Group possibilities for the joint use of components and systems in MINI and Alfa Romeo vehicles in order to achieve economies of scale and thus cost reductions within the framework of our Strategy Number ONEâ€, Eichiner said in Munich.
Additionally Fiat and BMW were in talks to allow Fiat to share showroom space with MINIs in the USA thus giving Fiat a low-cost entry back into the US market.
The aim was to reach something official by the end of 2008. That didn’t happen and now it appears we know why. Today Fiat and Chrysler officially merged with Fiat taking on a 35% stake in the ailing US automaker. In regards to Fiat selling cars at MINI dealers, we now know that is off the table. However what we don’t know for certain is how this impacts the next generation MINI platform and the possible sharing of components (and potentially the entire platform) with Fiats and Alfas.
Fiats will not be made my Chrysler, rather Fiat is giving them some of the technology they have developed and they are giving Fiat access to its dealer network, this is going to include the Alfa and Fiat brands. They are going to help Chrysler build a small car but are already talking about bringing in the 500 so there will be direct Mini competition. After from hearing what the 500 has done to some of the Mini markets in Europe think Mini USA should be very concerned about this.
Also with the massive Chrysler dealer network Mini’s dealer network will be dwarfed. The cars are going to be made in Mexico at a Fiat factory.
Heh? Listen to the demand of their customers? Like all the Mini customers that love to mod and improve their cars, and then complain when the JCW comes with a base suspension for them to mod…? I think BMW knows just how to take the input of its customers.
True that Mini owner love to mod their cars, still making a performance car with a purely laughable suspension leaves me thinking that Mini isn’t all that specially in-tune with their community.
I can say that the 500 has made a large dent in Mini sales in Europe and expect it to do the same here for people in the Mini community that aren’t worried about making a substandard performance car as much as something unique and iconic. Mini has lost the unique part partially though because of the success of the brand. I have driven though some very obscure towns and have seen Minis over the years and in my local small town you can’t drive 5 minutes without seeing a Mini.
Glad to finally see some direct competition for MINI in the U.S. Maybe MINI/BMW will stop being so arrogant and either get more MINI dealerships in place or allow BMW dealerships to service MINIs.
Perhaps when MINI can’t sell every vehicle that they produce, dealerships will finally start dealing. I say hurrah for competition – it can only lead to better designed and built MINIs and hopefully keep the prices from going through the roof.
You don’t see that many Fiat 500’s in England, but you do see a hellava lot of MINI’s.
A few month’s ago I saw a launch for some Fiat 500’s in a shopping mall. They all had drip-trays underneath so the oil didn’t spoil the marble!
I think the reputation of Fiat and Alfas in the UK would be something BMW would want to steer away from…
JonPD – you don’t seem to get it. Its because of modders that they have deliberately specced the JCW with the base suspension. If anything it seems they were a little too tuned in.
I don’t know that comparing the Fiat 500 to the MINI in England is the best gauge of how they stack up from a sales standpoint, but I’d be interested to see a comparison from the rest of Europe (especially in Italy–if Fiat can’t do it there, it can’t do it anywhere). I like the 500, but I don’t love it–still think the MINI has more character, and is the better looking car. Never seen a 500 in the flesh though.
Lava, you are the ultimate BMW apologist, are you a midlevel employee looking for a promotion? I happen to agree with the opposite sentiments–BMW missed the mark with the JCW, and the attitude “BMW knows what its doing, we all must trust them ” is laughable, BMW has made plenty of mistakes over the years–sorry, but I don’t consider it sacrilige to criticize them, hopefully they’ll take it as constructive criticism and further improve the brand.
Are we really going to argue over the factory JCW suspension again? Mini makes a car that can line up with a Mustang GT but puts a suspension on it that is a complete joke? Somebody please name ONE other high performance version of a vehicle that doesn’t automatically come with a matching suspension upgrade. For that matter, would one single factory JCW owner post here and state that they left the base suspension on their car intentionally?
You have to drive this car with the base suspension to realize what a blunder this is. What were you thinking Mini?
One item that no one has yet mentioned is that BMW is now saddled with a FWD platform for the Mini that isn’t shared with any other car. This means overall higher costs per car than a platform that is made in higher volumes or shared across many models.
This is bad news for our little car, independent of what one thinks of FIAT quality.
FWIW, I had a 75 FIAT 124 spider, and while you had to stay on top of it, it was a blast to drive and own.
Mini’s market share here in the US is dependant on it’s continued premium business model…Fiat and Chrysler are not. The Fiat/Chrysler part of the US auto pie does not come from the premium market.
The key to MINI & BMW in the US market is the publics perception of what is PREMIUM.
cct1 – I’m not apologizing for BMW at all. I think they clearly made a mistake. I’m just saying that all you bone heads that whine “Mini, listen to me” got what you sowed, and even now are too dense to see it.
The 500 has no history in the US the way the Mini did. On the other hand Fiat does, and its mostly bad. I think they have overcome the quality problems that typified a 1970s model, but its still going to take some doing to convince America of that.
I don’t think Fiat will have trouble selling their car here at all. After all I see Smartcars everywhere and they are complete pieces of garbage. I think Fiat is extremely wise to bring their cars here, while this won’t destroy Mini is will draw some of the sales away from Mini and Smart both for people wanting unique cars.
Personally I don’t care if Mini listens to me or not. They have not made a car since early 06 that even slightly convinces me to purchase a new car from them. I love a large portion what they did with the r56 but the center stack alone is such garbage that its not likely to ever follow me home. So saying that what I express is my opinion and don’t expect Mini to really care what I think. If they did the crossover would be scrapped, the center stack would be addressed, and the JCW sub-brand would have something in it to make it something other than a bad joke.
Hay, JonPD, can you tell us how you really feel? 😉
Anyway, BMW/MINI has to do some serious thinking about how to get more mileage out of the FWD chassis.
FWIW, the same place that builds the 300C and a couple of Jeep variants will be building the MINI soft-roader… Yes, it’s true, Magna Steyer in Austria!
This is a win/win for FIAT and Chrysler… FIAT gets faster access to the US market, and Chrysler gets faster access to small car platforms.
People may not like the FIAT brand here, but we swallowed the PSA engine (and look at the Peugot rep in the US), but now, BMW is like the guy at a dance who just lost his date! What to do… what to do?!?!?
Well the Smart car did not have a reputation to overcome. 500s may take some cooper sales, but no more than the upcoming Ford Fiesta, what looks like the VW Polo spooling up for the states, and Mazda is talking of bringing the 2 in, (although as a 4dr the 2 falls more in line with the Chevy Aveo and Kia Rio). The 500 is going to have more of a time tooth and nail with these other competitors than the already well established Mini.
The Smart car really doesn’t fall into the equation–it’s for all practicle purposes a disposable car. They ought to put out some big recycyling kiosks for them, make it easy for the owners to dipose of them, kind of like they do for aluminum cans…
There is no question the Fiat will represent competition for the MINI. Its another small, funky, quirky fun car, not on the same order as the more traditional Aveo or Rio, which I don’t think really compete with the MINI all that seriously. As for Fiat quality, I seriously doubt the demographic for the 500 will have much of a clue about Fiat in the first place, so past history won’t be a big deal.
Judging from what I’ve read from european forums, the Fiat 500 will be near, if not at, the top of cross shopped cars with the standard 2 door MINI. The question will be how many people cross shop them will actually buy them.
FIATs haven’t been sold here for decades. Really, for many new buyers, they won’t know anything about the cars other than they like the look, the package, and the price, or not.
We often forget that cars that don’t fall into exactly the same segment compete, as many buyers are somewhat flexible in what they purchase. There are lots of Mini drivers that really didn’t have to have a two door FWD hatch. So all these smaller cars or any car at about the same price point will be competition to some degree or another.
I would also say as a classic Mini fan, I know of very few classic owners that leave from home very far without a head gasket or knowledge where every hill in they way is on a hot day. I adore them but for reliability the classic Fiats and Mini shared a lot of short comings.
The base fact is Mini has has its market pretty low on competition here for a while. That is in process of being changed quickly by a variety of manufactures. Meanwhile instead of making the bread and butter product of the brand the very best it can be Mini is building a SUV. Have yet to figure that move out, but then again thats just me.
Its true that many consumers are too young to have experienced Fiats themselves, but you have your head in the sand if you don’t think the auto press and every reviewer won’t make a point of their history. Its going to be part of the context of their return to the states no matter how they may try to avoid it.
The pricing will determine what the 500 is competing with. I’d guess it would come in around what the VW Polo would, and a little more than the Ford. These may have many of the same buyers as the Cooper if the pricing is close. Otherwise I don’t see them taking buyers. People looking for value now can get a bigger car for less money. The only reason they get the cooper is because they love it. The 500 has to have that same appeal, frankly I don’t think the design cuts it. Its not going to gain a Mini like following, the same way the Chevy HH had none of the magic of the PT Crusier. Its too late, its been done. The 500 is going to land in with the Polo as another small car. And if the price is more aggressive then they will find themselves competing with the Yaris, Rio, and Aveo as a matter of price.
No problem with the car itself. The top issue I have with MINI is still that the dealership is too far away–one hour drive in normal traffic. (I live in Seattle.) The real competition for small cars I think will not come from Fiat, but from the Japanese car makers. Nissan sells a small, nice and classic looking car in Asia the size of MINI. The reason it is not here is because they do not bother, yet. It would be fairly easy to come up with something that match MINI inside and outside in a very short period of time. Of course some would only buy MINI brand no matter what. But if MINI continues on its niche marketing approach, someone else will eat their lunch. MINI should take the old Beetle approach. Make it good, make it affordable and make it everywhere. They can still have the performance versions for the enthusiasts and the rich. No conflict at all.
I am thrilled to see the Chrysler/Fiat partnership. Chrysler forgot how to do small and fun, and Fiat needs an easy was into the USA. What better way in than idle Chrysler plants and product-starved dealers to build US-spec Alfa MiTo’s and Fiat 500’s and Grande Punto Abarth’s to take over all small car sales?! I’m sure MINI and BMW are reeling over this news, but IMO it’s exactly what the US marketplace needed.
To reiterate on what Ryephile posted, Chrysler forgot a long time ago about what consumers want and I truly hope they go out of business. We need companies like Tesla and Mini that research and use new technologies to give us a product that is fun and gets us farther away from oil dependency.
I’d love a 500 Abarth. And the MiTo is way cool too.
I’m still a firm believer that cars don’t have to be the same to compete. There are tons of threads on NAM about people getting 1 series cars, and even someone wanting a new Camero! It’s the price point that makes the competition, not the layout. And Minis can be plenty expensive… That’s for sure.
I can say one of my friends in Germany used to have four mini’s on his block, since then 3 of the four are not 500s.
Its not only Fiats being sold in the Chrysler dealerships but Alpha’s as well, I would darked the door to see a 8C at the dealership lol.
Still no way around it Mini is going to just be one of many small cars available soon. Many of which does things better than Mini, particularly when it comes to interior design. Meanwhile Mini spends millions making a crossover Yawn.
If you read the article, it looks like we might be seeing Alfa Romeo, but probably not Lancia. Alfa makes some very cool looking cars, although I don’t know enough about them with regard to performance; something I’d at least take a look at…
A Fiat built by Chrysler – what could possibly go wrong?
Fiats will not be made my Chrysler, rather Fiat is giving them some of the technology they have developed and they are giving Fiat access to its dealer network, this is going to include the Alfa and Fiat brands. They are going to help Chrysler build a small car but are already talking about bringing in the 500 so there will be direct Mini competition. After from hearing what the 500 has done to some of the Mini markets in Europe think Mini USA should be very concerned about this.
Also with the massive Chrysler dealer network Mini’s dealer network will be dwarfed. The cars are going to be made in Mexico at a Fiat factory.
Maybe this direct competition will give BMW a wakeup call and make them listen to the demand of their customers.
Heh? Listen to the demand of their customers? Like all the Mini customers that love to mod and improve their cars, and then complain when the JCW comes with a base suspension for them to mod…? I think BMW knows just how to take the input of its customers.
True that Mini owner love to mod their cars, still making a performance car with a purely laughable suspension leaves me thinking that Mini isn’t all that specially in-tune with their community.
I can say that the 500 has made a large dent in Mini sales in Europe and expect it to do the same here for people in the Mini community that aren’t worried about making a substandard performance car as much as something unique and iconic. Mini has lost the unique part partially though because of the success of the brand. I have driven though some very obscure towns and have seen Minis over the years and in my local small town you can’t drive 5 minutes without seeing a Mini.
Glad to finally see some direct competition for MINI in the U.S. Maybe MINI/BMW will stop being so arrogant and either get more MINI dealerships in place or allow BMW dealerships to service MINIs.
Perhaps when MINI can’t sell every vehicle that they produce, dealerships will finally start dealing. I say hurrah for competition – it can only lead to better designed and built MINIs and hopefully keep the prices from going through the roof.
We know MINI is not going away so any competition will be good. Let’s hope it amounts to more than a PT Cruiser 500.
You don’t see that many Fiat 500’s in England, but you do see a hellava lot of MINI’s.
A few month’s ago I saw a launch for some Fiat 500’s in a shopping mall. They all had drip-trays underneath so the oil didn’t spoil the marble!
I think the reputation of Fiat and Alfas in the UK would be something BMW would want to steer away from…
JonPD – you don’t seem to get it. Its because of modders that they have deliberately specced the JCW with the base suspension. If anything it seems they were a little too tuned in.
I don’t know that comparing the Fiat 500 to the MINI in England is the best gauge of how they stack up from a sales standpoint, but I’d be interested to see a comparison from the rest of Europe (especially in Italy–if Fiat can’t do it there, it can’t do it anywhere). I like the 500, but I don’t love it–still think the MINI has more character, and is the better looking car. Never seen a 500 in the flesh though.
Lava, you are the ultimate BMW apologist, are you a midlevel employee looking for a promotion? I happen to agree with the opposite sentiments–BMW missed the mark with the JCW, and the attitude “BMW knows what its doing, we all must trust them ” is laughable, BMW has made plenty of mistakes over the years–sorry, but I don’t consider it sacrilige to criticize them, hopefully they’ll take it as constructive criticism and further improve the brand.
Are we really going to argue over the factory JCW suspension again? Mini makes a car that can line up with a Mustang GT but puts a suspension on it that is a complete joke? Somebody please name ONE other high performance version of a vehicle that doesn’t automatically come with a matching suspension upgrade. For that matter, would one single factory JCW owner post here and state that they left the base suspension on their car intentionally?
You have to drive this car with the base suspension to realize what a blunder this is. What were you thinking Mini?
Can you say “Fix it again Tony”
One item that no one has yet mentioned is that BMW is now saddled with a FWD platform for the Mini that isn’t shared with any other car. This means overall higher costs per car than a platform that is made in higher volumes or shared across many models.
This is bad news for our little car, independent of what one thinks of FIAT quality.
FWIW, I had a 75 FIAT 124 spider, and while you had to stay on top of it, it was a blast to drive and own.
Matt
@Madoc – That was hilarious.
Lava, Lava……
I think the TRITEC is on its way back!
Viva la R53!
Mini’s market share here in the US is dependant on it’s continued premium business model…Fiat and Chrysler are not. The Fiat/Chrysler part of the US auto pie does not come from the premium market.
The key to MINI & BMW in the US market is the publics perception of what is PREMIUM.
Call
cct1 – I’m not apologizing for BMW at all. I think they clearly made a mistake. I’m just saying that all you bone heads that whine “Mini, listen to me” got what you sowed, and even now are too dense to see it.
The 500 has no history in the US the way the Mini did. On the other hand Fiat does, and its mostly bad. I think they have overcome the quality problems that typified a 1970s model, but its still going to take some doing to convince America of that.
As a previous Fiat 124 spyder owner, this is probably a blessing for Mini.
I don’t think Fiat will have trouble selling their car here at all. After all I see Smartcars everywhere and they are complete pieces of garbage. I think Fiat is extremely wise to bring their cars here, while this won’t destroy Mini is will draw some of the sales away from Mini and Smart both for people wanting unique cars.
Personally I don’t care if Mini listens to me or not. They have not made a car since early 06 that even slightly convinces me to purchase a new car from them. I love a large portion what they did with the r56 but the center stack alone is such garbage that its not likely to ever follow me home. So saying that what I express is my opinion and don’t expect Mini to really care what I think. If they did the crossover would be scrapped, the center stack would be addressed, and the JCW sub-brand would have something in it to make it something other than a bad joke.
Hay, JonPD, can you tell us how you really feel? 😉
Anyway, BMW/MINI has to do some serious thinking about how to get more mileage out of the FWD chassis.
FWIW, the same place that builds the 300C and a couple of Jeep variants will be building the MINI soft-roader… Yes, it’s true, Magna Steyer in Austria!
This is a win/win for FIAT and Chrysler… FIAT gets faster access to the US market, and Chrysler gets faster access to small car platforms.
People may not like the FIAT brand here, but we swallowed the PSA engine (and look at the Peugot rep in the US), but now, BMW is like the guy at a dance who just lost his date! What to do… what to do?!?!?
Matt
Well the Smart car did not have a reputation to overcome. 500s may take some cooper sales, but no more than the upcoming Ford Fiesta, what looks like the VW Polo spooling up for the states, and Mazda is talking of bringing the 2 in, (although as a 4dr the 2 falls more in line with the Chevy Aveo and Kia Rio). The 500 is going to have more of a time tooth and nail with these other competitors than the already well established Mini.
The Smart car really doesn’t fall into the equation–it’s for all practicle purposes a disposable car. They ought to put out some big recycyling kiosks for them, make it easy for the owners to dipose of them, kind of like they do for aluminum cans…
There is no question the Fiat will represent competition for the MINI. Its another small, funky, quirky fun car, not on the same order as the more traditional Aveo or Rio, which I don’t think really compete with the MINI all that seriously. As for Fiat quality, I seriously doubt the demographic for the 500 will have much of a clue about Fiat in the first place, so past history won’t be a big deal.
Judging from what I’ve read from european forums, the Fiat 500 will be near, if not at, the top of cross shopped cars with the standard 2 door MINI. The question will be how many people cross shop them will actually buy them.
FIATs haven’t been sold here for decades. Really, for many new buyers, they won’t know anything about the cars other than they like the look, the package, and the price, or not.
We often forget that cars that don’t fall into exactly the same segment compete, as many buyers are somewhat flexible in what they purchase. There are lots of Mini drivers that really didn’t have to have a two door FWD hatch. So all these smaller cars or any car at about the same price point will be competition to some degree or another.
Matt
I would also say as a classic Mini fan, I know of very few classic owners that leave from home very far without a head gasket or knowledge where every hill in they way is on a hot day. I adore them but for reliability the classic Fiats and Mini shared a lot of short comings.
The base fact is Mini has has its market pretty low on competition here for a while. That is in process of being changed quickly by a variety of manufactures. Meanwhile instead of making the bread and butter product of the brand the very best it can be Mini is building a SUV. Have yet to figure that move out, but then again thats just me.
Its true that many consumers are too young to have experienced Fiats themselves, but you have your head in the sand if you don’t think the auto press and every reviewer won’t make a point of their history. Its going to be part of the context of their return to the states no matter how they may try to avoid it.
The pricing will determine what the 500 is competing with. I’d guess it would come in around what the VW Polo would, and a little more than the Ford. These may have many of the same buyers as the Cooper if the pricing is close. Otherwise I don’t see them taking buyers. People looking for value now can get a bigger car for less money. The only reason they get the cooper is because they love it. The 500 has to have that same appeal, frankly I don’t think the design cuts it. Its not going to gain a Mini like following, the same way the Chevy HH had none of the magic of the PT Crusier. Its too late, its been done. The 500 is going to land in with the Polo as another small car. And if the price is more aggressive then they will find themselves competing with the Yaris, Rio, and Aveo as a matter of price.
Has anyone of you all seen a Chrysler dealership and where they are located in the United States? No MINI customer would go to those shady places.
No problem with the car itself. The top issue I have with MINI is still that the dealership is too far away–one hour drive in normal traffic. (I live in Seattle.) The real competition for small cars I think will not come from Fiat, but from the Japanese car makers. Nissan sells a small, nice and classic looking car in Asia the size of MINI. The reason it is not here is because they do not bother, yet. It would be fairly easy to come up with something that match MINI inside and outside in a very short period of time. Of course some would only buy MINI brand no matter what. But if MINI continues on its niche marketing approach, someone else will eat their lunch. MINI should take the old Beetle approach. Make it good, make it affordable and make it everywhere. They can still have the performance versions for the enthusiasts and the rich. No conflict at all.
I am thrilled to see the Chrysler/Fiat partnership. Chrysler forgot how to do small and fun, and Fiat needs an easy was into the USA. What better way in than idle Chrysler plants and product-starved dealers to build US-spec Alfa MiTo’s and Fiat 500’s and Grande Punto Abarth’s to take over all small car sales?! I’m sure MINI and BMW are reeling over this news, but IMO it’s exactly what the US marketplace needed.
To reiterate on what Ryephile posted, Chrysler forgot a long time ago about what consumers want and I truly hope they go out of business. We need companies like Tesla and Mini that research and use new technologies to give us a product that is fun and gets us farther away from oil dependency.
I’d love a 500 Abarth. And the MiTo is way cool too.
I’m still a firm believer that cars don’t have to be the same to compete. There are tons of threads on NAM about people getting 1 series cars, and even someone wanting a new Camero! It’s the price point that makes the competition, not the layout. And Minis can be plenty expensive… That’s for sure.
Matt
Totally agree Matt,
I can say one of my friends in Germany used to have four mini’s on his block, since then 3 of the four are not 500s.
Its not only Fiats being sold in the Chrysler dealerships but Alpha’s as well, I would darked the door to see a 8C at the dealership lol.
Still no way around it Mini is going to just be one of many small cars available soon. Many of which does things better than Mini, particularly when it comes to interior design. Meanwhile Mini spends millions making a crossover Yawn.
I’d also love a 500 Abarth, if reliability and dealership availability is good.
Well according to <a href="http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/23/fiat-and-chrysler-designers-to-begin-collaboration-other-fiat-d/" rel="nofollow">this</a> article on Autoblog, we will not see any of FIAT’s other brands as part of this agreement.
If you read the article, it looks like we might be seeing Alfa Romeo, but probably not Lancia. Alfa makes some very cool looking cars, although I don’t know enough about them with regard to performance; something I’d at least take a look at…