BMW Source Unofficially Confirms BMW X2 & 2nd Generation Paceman
Earlier today BMW uber source Scott26 (or Herr26 on BF) officially confirmed that they will bring to market an X2 sport activity coupe based on the second generation X1 and Countryman in 2017. According to BMW the model will be more upmarket than the X1 and only offered with xDrive. It is expected to come in both five and three door formats and will follow the typical crossover coupe design BMW initiated with the X6.
As expected the car will share a stretched version of the UKL platform with the next generation Countryman and Paceman. Yes the Paceman.
Just a few days ago we heard that the Paceman would likely not live on past the current generation. Now we heard from a very reliable internal source that it may do that and grow to accommodate more utility.
Speaking of the Countryman MINIs is planning on making the 2nd generation heavily influenced by the Dakar-winning competition car as a more ruggedly styled crossover. The Paceman on the other hand will be more urban oriented in design and feel decidedly more sporty.
If this news is correct (and this source typically is), the Paceman will join the five door hatch, Clubman and Countryman as the forth four door MINI.
<p>IT DOSEN’T MAKE ANY SENSE!!!!!!!</p>
<p>It makes perfect sense.
It fulfills global growth for compact cars and SUVs.
It opens up the Countryman to be more physical and able than before and even more durable but yet be fun to drive.
It allows the PACEMAN to fill the role of the sportier , active , lifestyle MINI SUV Activity Coupe , and 5drs extends its appeal and its market. Just like the Clubman.</p>
<p>The new MINI approach to adding practicality and flexibility was brought forward by evaluating other customers on what would make them buy a MINI?
Practicality was the main point. Hence why the MINI 5dr , Clubman and PACEMAN are focusing on these areas.</p>
<p>Just remember to make some small ones too then! ;)</p>
<p>You will be in luck. One of the most talked about hall evaluation by BMW AG’s product managers at the Geneva show was that with all the new city cars being launched by the volume manufacturers. City cars that , let’s be honest are influenced by the premium city concept started by MINI and imitated by everyone else. If you have ever seen a personalised Mercedes-Benz A-Klasse with its numbers and go faster stripes like Speed Racer and The fast and furious mixed with Sesame St.
In other words what were they thinking or drinking?</p>
<p>With Geneva and all these one city cars aiming at the lower end of the MINI has brought realisation that MINI has to go small and that they need a Rocketman to bring that city car substance back to the MINI brand.</p>
<p>The present UKL architecture is not possible and previous attempts on smaller Toyotas have not been possible.
But with the full development of the first scaleable architecture finally underway for both brands sportier models. Toyota have offered BMW further collaborations.</p>
<p>One is a city car , micro-city car which could be adapted for front or rear engined configuration and also open for hybrid drive and electrification. To BMW application for electrification is key to any collaboration. A car like the Rocketman must offer an electric option.</p>
<p>The second is where everything turns on its head.
With Honda pushing ahead a small sports car and Mazda readying a new MX-5. Toyota are moving forward on their own rival as they do not want to get left behind. This platform is flexible for front , rear and mid-engined application but is Rear Wheel Drive. The plan for MINI is to design and develop an individual sports car to replace the Coupe and Roadster and align with a BMW Z1 Roadster and Z2 Coupe. What is forgotten about the MINI Coupe and Roadster is that these were low volume models that took a small percentage of MINI sales. But since introduction in 2012 both have took around 20,000 sales each. So many think of a more sportier , individually styled sports car than standard MINI with a tailgate , different roof and raked screen.</p>
<p>If BMW were to join this collaboration? Then hypothetically the Z1 and Z2 will be RWD and so would the MINI have to be. But so far indication points to the UKL architecture.</p>
<p>“With Geneva and all these one city cars aiming at the lower end of the MINI has brought realisation that MINI has to go small”</p>
<p>Mini/MINI once owned this mind space. That they are so consistently <em>reacting</em> to external cues – competitors, reviews, customer surveys – rather than leading seems unnecessary. Particularly when looking at BMW.DE’s trajectory since MINI was acquired.</p>
<p>Bigger Motor Works strikes again.</p>
<p>If practicality is the new focus, then a Coupe or Roadster based on the F56 platform is truly doomed, yes? That would be very disappointing.</p>
<p>Oh great, more customer focus groups driving product sprawl. BMW 2AT, BMW X2 3D/5D, MINI Paceman 3D/5D, F54 Clubman, and MINI Countryman. Which to choose? I think Macan.</p>
<p>In terms of numbers, it makes sense! BMW has to fill in each of there numbers of the lineup! 1 series, 2 series, 3 series, 4 series, etc. X1, X2, X3, X4, etc.</p>
<p>I live in SF, the city filled with MINIs. I just saw a Paceman driving by while driving my R56 for FIRST TIME. It was not an ugly car, but I just didn’t feel MINIness coming from that car. Even in Countryman I see some of that. Paceman in fresh really looked like someone else tried to mimic MINI and failed at it. Again, it is not an ugly car, but I’d rather like to see 2nd gen coupe/roadster instead of 2nd gen Paceman. Well, I want to see the Rocketman to be really honest but that’s a story for another day…</p>
<p>I live in SF, the city filled with MINIs. I just saw a Paceman driving by while driving my R56 for FIRST TIME. It was not an ugly car, but I just didn’t feel MINIness coming from that car. Even in Countryman I see some of that. Paceman in fresh really looked like someone else tried to mimic MINI and failed at it. Again, it is not an ugly car, but I’d rather like to see 2nd gen coupe/roadster instead of 2nd gen Paceman. Well, I want to see the Rocketman to be really honest but that’s a story for another day…</p>
<p>I live in SF, the city filled with MINIs. I just saw a Paceman driving by while driving my R56 for FIRST TIME. It was not an ugly car, but I just didn’t feel MINIness coming from that car. Even in Countryman I see some of that. Paceman in fresh really looked like someone else tried to mimic MINI and failed at it. Again, it is not an ugly car, but I’d rather like to see 2nd gen coupe/roadster instead of 2nd gen Paceman. Well, I want to see the Rocketman to be really honest but that’s a story for another day…</p>
<p>This is very old news! Eighteen months ago, I discussed on MF this story regarding F26, which I had picked up from a reliable source. Herr26 immediately replied to me via MF confirming the story, which then prompted you to report this on BF later the same day, September 25 2012. There is little, if any, new information in your latest report.</p>
<p>There are lots of things we’ve reported that we’ve re-reported as other outlets have picked them up. Additionally being across two continents there are also things we simply haven’t posted due to time or them falling through the cracks. That’s why it pays to read the commentsif you’re a BF reader.</p>
<p>Yes I know. Just making a point. It’s good to keep you on your toes :-)</p>
<p>True!</p>
<p>I take it the 2G Paceman will also be larger than the 1G, per a comment made in WRR 499 at 32:05 (about the G2 Countryman platform getting larger)?</p>
<p>“the 2nd generation [Countryman will be] heavily influenced by the Dakar-winning competition car”</p>
<p>This is interesting. I’m curious as to what this could mean, given how little the competition car and the production car have in common: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F093I7qHv1s" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F093I7qHv1s</a></p>
<p>We’ve been reporting that the 2nd generation Countryman would get larger for a few years now. The F60 will be slightly larger than the already large Clubman concept.</p>
<p>Got it. I referenced the podcast because it fell after the post about the recent boardroom comments regarding future MINI’s lineup.</p>
<p>Herr26 or Nick Dawson, can you look at my second question?</p>
<p>We don’t have anything concrete on that btw.</p>
<p>BMW want to make the Countryman more durable and more fun off-road as well as regular Driving. Currently they are developing an adaptable suspension that will be able to tackle more terrain but still have fun whilst doing so.</p>
<p>A four-door Paceman? Isn’t that called a Countryman?</p>
<p>Is a four-door BMW 4 series really a 3 series? What BMW says…goes.</p>
<p>Scott26 is probably accurate when it comes to internal BMW deliberations at any given time but that does not mean they come to fruition.</p>
<p>For example, he (she?) has been talking about some kind of small roadster for years and it changes every six months (been called Z1/Z2/Z3/Z5 so far). Interesting to read but grain of salt etc…</p>
<p>I don’t like the reactionary internet types who greet every new BMW model with “they are diluting the brand” but I think the sales numbers show the only model they need is the hatch and the countryman.</p>
<p>If one were to take a random pole from 10 MINI owners/enthusiasts about what they think BMW is doing with MINI & where they should take MINI, you’d probably get 10 different answers! One would be you preferring only the hatch & Countryman in the lineup, another would side with only the smallest models…the hatch, convertible, coupe & roadster. Then another wants a Rocketman part of the line up, next one likes the coupe but not the roadster, another the roadster, not the coupe or Paceman. It goes on & on. Then there’s me. I’ve had an R56S hatch & current JCW Coupe, but may move to an F55S 4 door later this fall when they hit showrooms. All mostly subjective…..</p>
<p>I really do not care if people agree with my comment(s). The function of a forum is to express opinions and share knowledge. That said, MINI has (and is) becoming less mini and more MAXI. You can rationalize until the cow jumps over the moon to legitimize bigger is better. And that practicality should take precedence over the essence of “mininess.” MINI is named MINI for a no longer obvious reason — size. Like giant shrimp, calling MINI a MINI is becoming an oxymoron. MINIs were originally designed to be both practical and to a lesser degree sporty. In either iteration the cars were not big. They were “mini!” If MINI is intent on making larger vehicles that maximize practicality I suggest the creation of a sister brand named MAXI. The integrity of MINI would thus not be compromised or convoluted by ridiculous rationalizations.</p>
<p>Are you saying you’d prefer if the MINI were all the size of the original classic Mini…a 1300 lb vehicle with 10″ wheels? That’s what many wanted to keep when the new MINI arrived in the early 2000’s. It was HUGE compared to the classic Mini. Back in the 1970’s I had a Honda Z600 Sport Coupe that was the size of the original Mini…1310 lbs with a 2 cyl 600CC air cooled motorcycle engine 36HP & 0-60 in about 20 secs! Fun car, but not practical today.</p>
<p>MINI is still mini when it’s compared the other cars in its class. It’s like saying a Porsche Panamera or Cayenne isn’t a Porsche because they aren’t a rear engine 2 seater. Brands evolve, but at it’s heart its still a MINI. It doesn’t need to be the same size as the original MINI to do so.</p>
<p>Well stated and so very true!</p>
<p>Piper is spot on !
MINI no longer wants to be a ” NICHE ” Auto Company.
They want to be what ” herr26 ” says they are. All things to all people. And if that is the way they want to go, the competition is already way ahead of them.
For 30 Grand today, there is some fierce competition out there.
They need to KILL off 4 models, and not build more.
Hardtop, Countryman, and probably Roadster is all they need to be a perfect MINI Brand.
A convertible buyer would probably buy a roadster if that was the only drop top available. Back seat in the convert is virtually useless as a seat. Can’t get a skinny adult back there. Anybody notice the size of the american public these days.
The Paceman was dead on arrival. The public voted with their feet and that was NO !! Don’t believe all those ” Reported ” sales. All is not what they would have you believe. Evoque 2 door is less than 4% of their sales.
Clubman-eh ! fading out pretty fast. Coupe, just ok for sales. The people that own them love them, but numbers are small.
Well thats my Rant ! and by the way, I am a MINI salesman, and I do expect to see 10 models before its over, and then MINI will be just another car company.
It really is a shame, so enjoy while you can
.
P.S. The F56 is taking the hardtop to the next level, but thats just one model.</p>
<p>Raymond,
Have you not sold a convertible to someone that had children? The rear seats work. Not sure what market you are in, but the Paceman is also very popular where I am, and it would be moreso with four doors (no it’s not the same as a Countryman). People are able to tell it apart from a Countryman based on looks, and a four door Paceman would be better selling than it is now, because people could actually get in and out of the back easier if it had more doors.
I understand that you have your opinions, which I respectfully disagree with, however I am ashamed that you address youself as a salesman, not a Motoring Advisor. “salesmen” sell Toyotas. MINI will never be “just another car company”, regardless of the many or few models they offer in the future, and regardless of the annual number of units sold.</p>
<p>Since the beginning of the first product expansion. MINI has been morphing into a specific brand with a range of concepts.
MINI is less about the original philosophy, and more about the brand these days.</p>
<p>“MINI is less about the original philosophy, and more about the brand these days.”</p>
<p>Nicely put.</p>
<p>You’re not alone. I’m a shameless enthusiast for the smallest possible MINI. Unfortunately, (and is often confirmed on WWR and MF) we’re in the minority.</p>
<p>Nearly all manufacturers are stretching their platforms. Because Mini/MINI’s was poster child for “just enough is more”, it takes the heat in this regard. Deservedly, in my opinion.</p>
<p>I suspect when there’s another oil or credit crisis, there will be a reversal.</p>
<p>I think that most of us who have owned MINIs/Mini’s lean toward the small. But & that’s a big BUT, many of us also have changing motoring needs over time, that can’t be handled with the 2 door hatch or the other small models. Since those want to stay with the MINI brand even as a family everyday vehicle, they move on to the larger Clubman, Countryman, or Pacemen for the added seating/storage space.</p>
<p>I’ve had an 08 R56S hatch & current ’12 JCWCoupe. But looking ahead, my needs warrant a likely move into the new 4 door F55S hatch late this year. A bit larger but a lot more practical for me, than the Coupe, yet should still give me the fun of getting behind the wheel in a MINI!</p>
<p>I live in an area where, due to freeze/thaw cycles, road damage is ever present; this as well as occasionally deep snow make low slung cars a bit of a problem. AWD, while not necessary is a benefit here allowing the use all season tires. There are so few “sporty” AWD manuals out there that the Paceman is a welcome option. My WRX is frequently scraping bottom (especially under it’s nose), which leads me to be concerned about buying an F-56; additionally, I have to drive through the Rocky Mountains on a weekly basis so Summer tiers aren’t an option, whereas all-seasons with AWD are passable. I would greatly prefer the F-56 but if I can’t swing a new place with two car garage what ever I replace my Rex with (I really want something smaller) a Paceman might be a decent way to go (depending on how the next generation turns out).</p>
<p>I never had an issue getting around in my four years in Colorado with my 02 MCS and a dedicated set of 15″ wheels with blizzaks. The only concern is, as you stated, ground clearance. Even then, I rarely had a problem on most public roads or even trips to the slopes.</p>
<p>15″ wheels are illegal on MCS 😉 (even winter wheels)</p>
<p>I was speaking to some one yesterday who confirmed it as well. Also said the 7 seat countryman is a go.</p>
<p>One of the interesting things about the new Countryman project is that the PACEMAN might be renamed. Some ideas under discussion are the Countryman Sport , Countryman Active , CountrymanX , Countryman X-Over , Countryman Cross to name a few. It is not necessary that it is going to happen , but all options are open.</p>
<p>The new Countryman is very chunky , some details are familiar especially with the Current Countryman and indeed 2008s MINI Crossover concept especially with its raised height and expanded wheel arches. A split tailgate is a new feature.</p>
<p>The PACEMAN replacement follows the same dynamically slopping roof as before but adds extra doors at the rear. This model is to compliment the Countryman in the same way the X4 and X6 compliment the X3 and X5 and the Range Rover and Range Rover Sport.</p>
<p>Saw a mock-up of the new Countryman in the flesh at a clinic. Proportionally, it is like the current one but with a longer tail section for more boot space and slightly more rear seat room. It had the same roof treatment with the dip at the back. The rear lights were vertical and intrude into the tailgate as on the F56. It had more rugged wheel arches (think toned down Dacia Duster) and the front moved away from the current look with squared headlamps which looked like an old CRT screen. Not sure if it was the final design but It is rugged rather than pretty and therefore it makes sense that there is room for a stylish, design-led 4-door Paceman in the range. Few people want 2-door cars (The Renault Clio, Ford Focus scrapped 2-door versions this generation and more will follow suit) so MINI is responding to that.</p>
<p>That is one of the proposals yes. Did you think it reminded you of the solidity and broadness of the 2008 MINI Crossover Concept?</p>
<p>I thought it looked quite different from that and the current Countryman. I found the front end a bit ugly. Interior was stunning however.</p>
<p>Now please give me a revised Coupe with a hardtop option and the new interior and I will buy buy buy!</p>