BMW Going Green?

Jon Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

Honestly believe BMW/Mini has made a decision that will greatly affect the charm of the brand. The R60….

The fact is that I believe a honest attempt to create a truly green Mini would have actually added to the reputation of the brand, something no SUV will ever do.

imo

Vanwall Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

Nice job Herr Krause – this was BMW’s “Let them eat cake” moment. With a deliberately obtuse attitude like that, can storming the Bastille..er…BMW Welt be far behind? Better get off the dime, boys, and get that Bimsetta line going – Madame Defarge is just over the horizon, seems to me.

Hai Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

“While Mini would seem to be a perfect target for BMW’s aspirations, the company is afraid that adding too many models to the brand could dilute its charm.”

How ironic is this statement?!

I agree with Jon, I’d take a Green MINI over an SUV MINI any day.

Chrissy (lilcoopr) Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

Make that three… I also agree that a “green MINI” would be better for the brand than the SUV. Sometimes I wonder who is making these sorts of decisions…?

If I recall, the classic Mini was designed to be very fuel efficient because the supply of oil was short because of the Suez Oil Crisis way back when. And now we have another (near?)oil crisis/shortage so I think MINI should learn from the past and make something the runs on an alternative energy source and is affordable. But I guess that is a long shot to ask for that..?

c4 Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

If MINI insists in not bringing the Dooper model to the US market, at least, I would be happy with a Flexfuel MINI engine that takes E85 ethanol gas. It seems to me that BMW is really behind the curve in the US market when it comes to alternative fuels powered vehicles.

James Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

C4 Wrote – It seems to me that BMW is really behind the curve in the US market when it comes to alternative fuels powered vehicles.

On the contrary, they are leading the pack with their Hydrogen research and have even launched the Hydrogen7 here in the USA. BMW Group has identified the chortcomings with Hybrid/Ethanol technologies and is pouring its time and resources into devolping higher fuel efficiency petrol and diesel engines as well as longer-term solutions for sustainability such as Hydrogen.

DB Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

If MINI insists in not bringing the Dooper model to the US market, at least, I would be happy with a Flexfuel MINI engine that takes E85 ethanol gas. It seems to me that BMW is really behind the curve in the US market when it comes to alternative fuels powered vehicles.

Not to mention the fact that they are bringing the 3 series and X5 here in Diesel form. We’ve talked about this many times before. I don’t know how they could put the tech in the MINI D that would make it 50-states legal emissions wise while keeping the cost in-line. The system going into these cars requires 2 urea tanks that are 1 and 4.5 gallons in size and will have to be refilled at every service visit. Where would you put those in a MINI?

On a more productive note, why hasn’t anyone wondered what this means?

That said, MINI isn’t ignorant of the burgeoning need for more fuel efficient cars in the US. Look for more news on this in the coming months on MF.

Those words have shown up on MF more than once in the last year. I think instead of continuing to complain about the diesel not coming to the states, it might be more fun to speculate on what MINIUSA has up it’s sleeves.

And, again, instead of blaming MINI or BMW for not bringing the MINI D to the states, you should go back and read this post for a refresher on the whys and hows.

Bill Lawrence Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

BMW should be careful adding new divisions and diluting their brands in the pursuit of being all things to all people.

If they overdo it we will have to change their name to GMW.

c4 Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

Amen to that, Bill Lawrence.

Further, while I agree that Hydrogen technology is the “real” long term solution for the future, we are still a good 10-15 years away before we see affordable mass produced hydrogen powered cars and the required support infrastructure to keep them running (Fueling stations, etc).

However, if I walk into a BMW showroom in the United States today, I won’t find a single alternate fuel vehicle offering. Not until the Diesel 3 series and X5 are both launch to market.

I am not a fan of the Hybrid vehicle camp. I think it is for all practical purposes, a bogus, overhyped and passe stop gap technology. Diesels offer a true cost effective alternative in my book.

zm Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

to keep trying to get the msg out, i’ll chime in w/ what i’ve mentioned in other posts:

-all biofuels are a lost cause, except for cellulosic ethanol (you can thank the ag lobby for perpetuating ideas otherwise)

-h2 will never make sense from efficiency or fueling infrastructure standpoints (why electrolysize water when you can put that electricity directly to work in an electric car?)

what does makes sense are diesel hybrids in the short-term, esp if you use the diesel as a generator, not as a drive motor. although, we need the epa to raise diesel fuel quality standards to reduce smog emissions & the need for urea (will never happen b/c of the trucking & oil/gas lobbies. instead, we have high rates of asthma in urban children & cheap diesel. also keep in mind supply & demand effects on future diesel pricing.)

long-term: electric cars powered by solar cells or nuclear energy. just need battery tech to get better (and solar & nuke plants). anyone see that BYD nickel-iron hybrid at the detroit auto show? would like to get some more info on that…

if you want more details as to why the above is the case, leave a temp email & i’ll fill you in.

James Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

zm Wrote: -h2 will never make sense from efficiency or fueling infrastructure standpoints (why electrolysize water when you can put that electricity directly to work in an electric car?)

IMHO, I disagree. It will make a lot of sense once the public is ready again to embrace an efficient technology to manufacture it. It is clean, safe, and reliable. Not to mention relatively easy to do as a conversion. This efficient source? Nuclear. You mentioned it yourself. The only problem? “NIMBY”.

I am not opposed to electric cars – but am yet to see a practical prototype.

bavarian racing green Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

…why this is the case???

…come now, that is a bit presumptuous…

…hydrogen is quite viable to produce via hydrolysis from electricity from windmills, hydro, and solar sources…

…plus, current tech allows for a relatively easy conversion for us and more populous economies like india and china…

…to me this makes far more sense than going long term electric only as people forget that an electric car is not green if it eats up unnecessary energy and resources to produce…

…as i again reference energy study showing that currently an H3 is greener than a prius for the first 6 years of ownership, due to much higher resources required for higher-tech components…

…the old occam’s razor strikes again…

Julietel Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

Ever hear about capcitor batteries? AUS knows all about ‘em. They last longer and weigh less. Diesel electric using such technology is a viable direction for BMW to pursue.

zm Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

hardly presumptuous. energy, transportation, technology & policy is what i do. i’ve been bathed in this stuff for a long time.

it makes no sense to introduce the electrical inefficiency of hydrolysis, coupled w/ the low power density of h2 (which requires a lot of energy to compress it to 10,000psi to get decent vehicle range). take that electricity and put it directly to electromotive use in an electric car.

we already have an extensive electric car power grid–the plugs in your garage. it’ll be easier to put ‘charging stations’ for street parking in an urban areas rather than building h2 fuel stations for everyone to use.

btw, the solar fueling stations that honda are using to refuel their leased h2 cars take over a week to produce enough h2 & then enough energy to compress it (the real energy hog) for one tank of ‘gas’.

and, if you understood the absurd assumptions the CNW report you mentioned used (h3 vs prius), you’d be appalled that you quoted it to defend your point.

i have no allegiances except what’s best for the environment, while being technically feasible & not killing our economy. when there’s something better than diesel hybrids & all electric, i’ll jump ship. h2 & biofuels are not those techs.

cze33r Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

Good discussion.

How is MINI not the perfect platform to lead the way in fuel efficent cars as has been stated above. I agree that if they create something truly special, the brand won’t be diluted it will be strengthened. zm, if you were to design a ‘green’ MINI, how would you power it, would it be alot lighter than the R56, would it be any smaller ? I’m interested to hear your views because I believe that we can have something that is fuel efficient, safe, desirable and still alot of fun.

Jon Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

I am interested in seeing what Mini eventually tells us about some sort of higher mileage vehicle.

MF has been saying for a long time that there is more information coming. Just seems that they are holding this info close to their chest. Guess my big gripe is all the money being wastes on a SUV that could have pushed this development along. A high mileage Mini, heck everybody that I’ve spoken to about my Mini’s first statement is always “wow that must get really good mileage”. I think they could bring this into the brand without doing anything but improving the brand image. Instead we get the BMW/Mini’s oxymoron a Mini SUV.

zm Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

like a lot of commenters have said, diesel is the way to go. but, where the finger gets pointed at auto makers for not making 50-state legal diesels, it’s not really their fault. the reason the cars need big urea tanks is we refine a really dirty version of diesel fuel in the US. if we had clean diesel we’d have cooper D’s in the US (not to mention lower lung cancer & asthma rates).

each of us would also have a more expensive cost of goods basket, since the trucking industry would have to pay more for clean fuel & from increased demand as it became more popular in the non-commercial transportation sector.

b/c of all the needed systems, you can’t really do a hybrid on a car as small as a mini. so, that leaves us at an all electric mini–much like a tesla. but, even a tesla has a huge battery pack, is a decent bit smaller & lighter, and still only gets 200-250mi on a charge–something that would never work w/ all the mini roadtrips we all like to take.

unfortunately, it’s kind of a catch-22 on a car as small as a mini. you can’t have huge urea tanks, and you can’t have all the hybrid subsystems b/c battery packs are so huge. you’d think you could make it super efficient b/c of it’s size, but there’s just not enough room to make it happen w/ today’s tech. super capacitors, better batteries, etc have to happen to make hybrid systems smaller.

lastly, a lot of mini owners are already ‘green conscious’, hence the reason they bought a mini. me personally, i couldn’t find a smaller, more practical, sporty, lowest total cost of ownership vehicle, so here i am. i think a lot of us are the same way (and why we’re having this conversation).

so i agree, a green mini would only be applauded by the masses. but until diesel fuel gets cleaned up or energy storage gets better, the direct injection turbo in the r56 might be what we’re stuck with.

maybe we can get some cellulosic ethanol in between there, but in the end that’s still combustion. if you combust your fuel you’ll always end up w/ a lot of co2, regardless of the fuel.

unless that fuel is h2 (enter the h2 camp…). b/c of the reasons i’ve already mentioned (inefficiency of electrolyzing water, compressing h2 to 10kpsi, turning h2 into electricity through the fc stack or combusting it in an ICE, then finally sending the electricity to the motors), you have to greatly increase national solar/renewable/nuclear elec output just to break even w/ demand required for plug-in cars.

knowing how little of our current energy is renewable & how inefficient current solar tech is, that’s almost laughable. not to mention, the added raw material & industrial waste costs to build out that larger energy infrastructure–something that’s often forgotten by the h2 crowd.

yes, all electric cars have a lot of waste, too. we’d be stupid to stick 1000’s of laptop batteries into every car. that’s where moore’s law will come in a trump any advances in petro tech. electronics will become much more capable, cheaper, smaller, etc, much more quickly than any combustion or fuel cell tech could ever hope to keep up.

both the ICE & fuel cells have been around since the 1800s. the transistor, late 1940’s…

but, what do you guys think?

bavarian racing green Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

…the presumption was not in your facts, only in how you will fill folks in on ‘how the above is the case’…

…nothing personal, but when people claim to know how anything ‘is’, it is usually because they are selling something…

…besides my opinion needs little defense, it’s weak at best (hell i typed it on my wii over lunch)…

…so a weak study makes for an appropriate shield (flawed assumptions that i do understand aside, the point of referencing that article was merely to point to the inherent flaw in the globally efficiency-limiting overly-complicated design of hybrids)…

…to me hybrids rank right up there with the atkins diet and communism as some of the biggest scams pulled off in modern history…

…the larger point, which is not mine and needs no defense, is that especially in the conservation of energy, the simplest answer should be given the most consideration…

…which ironically is where we agree…

zm Jan 23rd, 2008 Link

agreed, simplest is best.

to me that means all electric w/ solar/nuke energy down the road. to others that means h2.

one always has to take into acct total life cycle analysis in the production of a vehicle. but, that also has to be coupled w/ well/field-to-wheels analysis for the fuel source & its needed distribution infrastructure.

it’s hard to argue against the effeciency gains you see w/ hybrids in large vehicles–there are some huge mpg improvements that vastly outweigh the hybrid raw material cost/complexity/enviro impacts. in smaller cars (like a prius) the benefit is certainly less & becomes questionable depending on its use–i.e., is it a city car or a highway car, is it driven easily or aggressively?

in the end, it’s not which tech should be chosen over all others, it’s what mix of technologies should be chosen to specifically suit certain vehicles for different uses.

b/c of what’s been discussed we can see that’s a very tough balancing act for mini–a small car w/ a large demographic of customers, each w/ their own use.

if they could somehow fit a diesel hybrid in there, that’d be great. but really, we need the next generation of batt, super cap tech to come out to make that happen.

certainly can’t fault them for putting a highly efficient gas motor in the r56 in the meantime, though.

goonery Jan 24th, 2008 Link

Filthy diesel swilling yanks :-)

c4 Jan 24th, 2008 Link

So we can conclude that the trucking industry lobby is what is preventing the rest of us from getting a Dooper in the United States?

Toyota must be laughing their asses off..

bavarian racing green Jan 24th, 2008 Link

…oh, yes my hybrid anger is only focused at gas-electric hybrids… …locomotive-style diesel hybrids are conversly ‘the shizzle’…

cze33r Jan 24th, 2008 Link

Thanks zm !!

gokartride Jan 24th, 2008 Link

I find myself shocked to consistently be getting 39-40 mpg around town in my R56 manual Cooper. We may not be at the cutting edge of fuel efficiency, but that’s darn good in my book, especially for a car that is still such insane fun should you decide to put your foot down.

zm Jan 25th, 2008 Link

no kidd, r56 mpg is very high, considering. direct injection turbo motors are great for efficiency & torque.

anyone else see that the US smart car is rated 33/40? that’s ludicrous. it’d have to get 70mpg for me to even consider a test drive.

zm Jan 25th, 2008 Link

btw, i have no inside info, but i’d watch for mini to kick out a US diesel TDI for ‘10, or whenever the mid-life refresh is.

VW & audi (the leaders in tdi tech) will have their next gen carb compliant tdi’s out later this year. honda will have some out for ‘09. i’d see bmw coming in on their heels.

the next gen tdi’s will be a very nice improvement in mpg. they just need a little more time to develop tech to reduce n2 via intake a/f mixture control & for urea catalysts to get more efficient. and, keep costs under control.

one aspect i’m not familiar with is how would the tdi motors effect the fun factor around the track. some vw/audi drivers out there would have to chime in on that.

Jon Jan 28th, 2008 Link

Honestly the most humorous thing is that people get transfixed by single technologies fixing all issues. I personally believe the real fix for alternative fuel vehicles is a blend. I see the case for bio-diesel, H2, gas/electric hybrids, plug in electrics. While I don’t see Mini developing a variety of flex fuel vehicles think this market has a HUGE future.