We’ve held off on reporting on this issue for the past few months trying to gather as much data as possible before presenting it to readers. After some investigation, we now believe we have a good picture of the issue as well as some real evidence of it. While a cold start problem doesn’t seem to be an entirely widespread phenomenon, there’s little question that there are more than a few of owners dealing with it around the world. The following report is one owner’s experience with it.
The following story was written by new MF Contributor Mike Hansen
For most owners, purchase of the new MINI R56 has been a very positive experience. As first model year cars go, the second generation new MINI has been relatively free of problems. Sure, surfing NAM or MINI2 one will have seen the slew of rattles, or crooked bonnets… and yes there have been a couple transmissions and clutch plates replaced… but all in all, these problems have generally been easy to identify and correct. To be honest, they aren’t outside of the realm of issues associated with the previous generation car, even after five years of production. That is, until now.
Beginning this past spring there has been a common theme popping up in the Faults and Fixes threads on various MINI forums. Specifically, MCS owners complaining about a peculiarly loud engine rattle on start-up. Now the R56 is an “interesting” sounding engine to begin with. The combination of the VANOS system and the direct fuel injection solenoids give the car a very diesel-esque sound at idle. But this is a very different sound altogether.
Generally, owners experiencing this rattle note that the “cold start” aspect has less to do with the ambient temperature as it does with the inactivity of the engine. Usually this rattle occurs during the first start of the day when the engine itself is “cold” and oil has drained into the sump. Appearing to originate along the left side of the head near the cam chain, the rattle is out of synch with the normal cadence of the engine and has a metal on metal tapping quality to it. It seems to decrease with higher RPMs and as the engine warms up to operating temperatures. For most the noise starts off as an infrequent occurrence and only a minor annoyance and many don’t feel the need to bring it to their dealer’s attention. Eventually however, the frequency, duration and sheer volume of the rattle increases.
The noise is a sporadic problem and does not occur with much predictability. It therefore becomes a very difficult thing for owners to present to their dealerships or for Service Technicians to diagnose. Based on the perceived point of origin, most MINI Service Departments who have actually heard the rattle for themselves have logically focused their attention on the cam chain tensioner. Many cam chain pistons have been replaced after fining that they were receiving less than sufficient oil for proper operation. This fix has been documented under MINI Service Bulletin #110207. Unfortunately for most owners, it has only been a temporary fix with the rattle returning in only a few short weeks.
Once the replacement chain tensioner fails, focus usually turns to the head itself. Specifically the hydraulic lifters, valve guides and the VANOS Solenoid. Again the theory is that oil is failing to properly enter the head and operate the valves during cold starts. Several owners have received what equates to a full rebuild of the car’s head in an attempt to diagnose and eliminate the cold start clatter. Some owners have reported the installation of a one-way check valve during the rebuild to keep oil from draining after the engine has been turned off. Unfortunately these too seem to be only a temporary fixes with the engine rattle returning only a short time later.
Ultimately MINI has taken the giant step to replace a handful of engines not only to solve the problem for the owner, but to bring the offending power plants back to MINI for inspection. One would think this would be a sure way to stop the engine rattle… but that has not necessarily been the case. At least one owner on MINI2 reports the noise came right back after only a few months of operation following a complete engine and head swap.
So is this even a problem? Some owners report being told the cold start rattle is “completely normal” and only a “trait of the engine”. One dealership in the UK has suggested that the cause of the noise is a lack of equalization of pressure within the head by the crankcase vacuum pump causing the pump to vibrate in its journal bearings. The suggested fix was to remove the vacuum pipe during start up. Otherwise the noise was said to be causing no harm and could not be fixed by a replacement part. Again, a trait of the engine design. This is tough pill to swallow for most experiencing the issue. I would argue that a metal-on-metal rattle that goes away with some combination of oil flow and operating temperatures has to be increasing wear and tear on the internals of whatever specific parts generating the noise. For some, merely living with this cold start rattle will not be an acceptable option.
Another theory posted by one R56S owner on the Michigan MINI Motorin’ Club website provides probably one of the best technical discussions on this particular issue. The basis of the theory is that air is getting into the oil circuit operating the hydraulic lifter system causing the valves to open and close out of time and “slam” into the closing ramp of the cam (causing an out-of-time knocking from the head). A decent theory, back up by some good technical know-how (and pictures for us laymen) and the answer provided may even be a simple solution: minimize the valve lash adjustment and use lower viscosity oil. For those experiencing the noise, the recommendation was made not to rev the engine over 2000 RPM until the oil properly fills the circuit and the noise goes away as damage could occur at higher RPM’s. Sounds like a very plausible theory, but time will tell.
So why should anyone care if it’s not effecting their car? Well, speaking from experience, my car did not produce this rattle for the first 5000 miles. When it began, I heard the rattle once or twice during that month. Over a two month period it got worse and worse. Some have noticed the problem within the first 1000 miles of operation while others have yet to hear any noises of any concern. Build date doesn’t seem to be a factor either, as some November and December cars are demonstrating the same cold start engine rattle already.
Mine is one of the engines that is going back to MINI for further inspection. I have been down every road described above to no avail. I will say that my dealer (Northwest MINI) has been more than helpful and has shown their dedication to working with MINI to find some answer to this problem. The bottom line is that the cause and solution to this cold start rattle are still unknown or at least unacknowledged by MINI. Based on what I’ve seen, I believe a full engine replacement will only be a temporary fix and in effect buy time for MINI to come to a more permanent solution. Keep in mind there have been no changes to the 2008 power plant to suggest that this issue will be limited to first-year production cars. So any MCS or Clubman S could theoretically have the potential to develop this rattle on start up.
I have my car back now after six weeks in the shop addressing this cold start rattle. With a new engine in place, I am starting my break-in once again. The engine is starting and running fine but I must say my overall confidence level in this car is non-existent right now. I’m about 1/3 of the way through my warranty and have no assurances that the new engine will not develop the same problem over time. In fact, I’m aware that it most likely will. If it’s anything like the original block, it’ll be 5000-8000 before I hear it again… which puts me 2/3rds through my warranty. Like I said, ZERO confidence.
If you factor in the first attempt to address this cold start rattle (cam chain tensioner replacement) I have been without my car for 2 months out of 11. So 18% of my ownership experience to date has been spent without my new car. I sincerely hope a permanent answer comes sooner vs. later. I for one would like to recapture some of those positive feelings I had towards my MINI just a few short months ago. 

Clearly there is a lot of speculation by owners as to what’s causing the horrible cold start rattle, if any damage is occurring and what will be done (if anything) to correct the problem. Most currently believe the relationship between the oil, oil pump and ECU should be the next point of focus and that all previous “fixes” have addressed the symptoms, but not the cause of this rattle. As you might recall, the R56 will slow or stop the circulation of certain fluids during start up to speed up the engine warm-up process and conserve energy. But again, this is just owners talking and the expectation is that the MINI engineers will eventually get to the bottom of things. Speaking as a new MINI owner experiencing this problem first-hand… I for one hope this answer comes sooner rather than later.
If you would like to read more from owners experiencing this cold start rattle, or share your experiences with other owners going though this process, check out these threads over at NAM or MINI2
Update: Since this story was written last week, we’ve been touch with MINI USA about the issue. While this problem doesn’t seem to be wide-spread (everyone I spoke with were unaware of the issue due to lack of warranty reports), they urge anyone who believes they have an issue to contact their dealer as well as MINI Customer relations. Despite not having first hand knowledge of this particular problem, everyone I spoke with seemed genuinely interesting in resolving any potential issue (whether it be cold start related or anything else) quickly and effectively.
Gabe, my hats off to you and MF for bringing up this issue, not only onto the light, but also to the powers that be at MINIUSA. As a very soon to be Clubman S owner, I read with both interest and concern about this problem which could be better described as “Piston slap”.
The bigger question remains is how this issue will affect the longetivity of the engines, and not only that, but if there is in fact an inherited design problem that could spark a massive recall.
Either way, current and future Prince engine owners are eagerly awaiting to hear from MINIUSA and hope for a prompt resolution to this problem.
PS: I guess the “old tech” TRITEC wasn’t that bad, was it?
Well this was 1 of the reasons my R56 had to go after 3 months of ownership. The amount of people who will not buy another Mini duethis problem is growing.
Nice write-up. I learned with my current Cooper S to never buy a first-year car. With my current S, it was a matter of I needed it then, so I was willing to take the risk (better than walking for a year..). As always, I wonder are we (MINI fans) just more in tune to what our car is doing over the average, say, Malibu (not knocking the Malibu, it’s a rather nice car for what it is)owners. Would they even bat an eye over a sound like this?
I have one of the first batch of R56’s (Feb 2007 delivery). I had read about the rattle and thought I had gotten lucky. But now in the East Coast winter and at 8,000+ miles, I have had the rattle three times. I drive gently and it goes away quite quickly.
Question: Is the rattle as rare as the story suggests?
As you might recall, the R56 will slow or stop the circulation of certain fluids during start up to speed up the engine warm-up process and conserve energy.
Though we’re not sure this is the culprit, turning off the oil pump for any reason struck me as a horrible idea from the first look we had at the new engine. My condolences to the owners who are experiencing this as that can’t be any fun at all. It’s encouragaing, however, that MINI has in the past taken really good care of stuff like this. So the chances of this happening a year from now are probably pretty slim. Even still, the engine changes in the R56 have been a deal breaker for me since we first started hearing about the new car. And that sucks, ’cause I REALLY like the Clubman!
I am not so sure the title, “R56 MCS Cold Start Issue In Detail” is an accurate one. It should probably be “R56 MCS Cold Start Noise, do you have it?”. What we have is a small but vocal group of obsessive-compulsive people that are analyzing a noise on a new engine design. No one knows if this is even an issue, as no one has had an actual failure yet. Yes, Mini has removed and replaced components and engines, but that is good customer service. Again, is there a documented case of failure due to this noise? If this truly is a widespread and fatal issue, one way or another Mini will take care of it regardless of where you are in the warranty period.
So please, please just enjoy the car, it will be alright.
God bless you Gabe ,You’ve got some brass ones ! I’ts only happened once to mine I was about 300 miles from a dealer ,I thought tellin my dealer would do no good seeing how they couldnt replcate it .It’s going in for service next month and I’ll tell them . Thanks !
Thanks for the report; When I first heard this sound on my February ‘07 build S with JCW engine upgrade, I was terrified. After doing a bit of research on Direct Fuel Injection and how MUCH it is different from other types of Fuel Injection, I just assumed it was a “trait” of DFI engines. Apparently I was wrong. I recently had a schdueled Dealer Maintenence Service (22,000 miles). I mentioned the noise to my Service Advisor and was told, after I mentioned the noise and perhaps that it may be the DFI, it was also his thought that it was due to Injection system at cold start. I guess I’ll have to go back and discuss this issue further….
…and oh by the way, I do agree with Nimcosi, if it turns out to be something critical, I’m certain MINI will address it. Until that time, I’m loving every minute with this car…
Question: Is the rattle as rare as the story suggests?
I don’t think we meant for the issue to sound rare or widespread. As you can guess there’s a fine line on the reporting of a potential issue and causing widespread panic among owners. What we’re trying to do here is just inform readers that some people are having problems and what those problems are. You may find that you have a similar problem or (more likely) you’ll say to yourself “thank God I’ve never heard that” and move on.
For me personally it’s something to look out for but my car has never had the issue. And God knows it’s seen it’s share of -0º temps this winter.
I am not so sure the title, “R56 MCS Cold Start Issue In Detail” is an accurate one. It should probably be “R56 MCS Cold Start Noise, do you have it?”.
To be honest I wasn’t sure what to call this story. I changed the title and took “in detail” to make it a little more open-ended.
If this truly is a widespread and fatal issue, one way or another Mini will take care of it regardless of where you are in the warranty period.
I think that’s a great point and one to remember. MINI has never not taken care of issues like this to my knowledge. All the issues with the R50/R53 were dealt with - many times on a case by case basis. I’m guessing this could be a similar situation if it progresses.
I have been waiting for this issue to be resolved before purchasing a new MINI. I am not interested in purchasing a headache. I was looking forward to ordering a nicely specced MCS PW/B this spring.
I know this only affects R56 Cooper S’s, but we had a customer come back with quite a rattle from her bonnet and the tech said it was a normal part of the engine sound.. “Just a trait of these engines”, although her rattle was pretty loud. I will ask him what exactly it was, but he said he’s heard it in quite a few Coopers. I don’t remember it being as bad as the S’s in these videos though. Man, they sound like a 18-wheeler truck trying to accelerate in stop-and-go traffic!!! :( Good luck getting a fix for it!
Reading the thread at Mini2 one person who had their engine replaced stated that they were told/they believe that there were some design changes to the valve train/valve seals of the engine, and that their replacement would incorporate these changes.
Yet the account here states that the engine has not been revised, and in fact the new Clubman’s have the same engine.
Is there any definitive clarification for this - Gabe?
For those questioning the merit of the owners’ reactions to this engine noise, I suspect you haven’t experienced this yourself.
I would probably be just as skeptical….however I have experienced this myself and it is a very legitimate concern. When this does happen, trust me, you will notice this is not a “normal” operating sound. I will say, without a doubt the owners that have experienced this issue are NOT over reacting.
I would not chalk this up to “funny engine sounds” we’re not familiar with on the new motor. My MCS just turner 1yr old, and has 16,000 miles. I first noticed this in December 07, after the car had sat 1 week after a vacation. It happens sporadically, but usually coincides with the car sitting for 1+day without being driven. I have been to my dealer, and it is a very difficult to explain. Dealer was unable to recreate the noise, and they are calling it, “normal operation.”
I’m hoping this will legitimize our concerns.
thanks.
I think attempts to downplay the seriousness of this problem are a huge disservice to the members of this community.
It seems to me that MINI is currently puzzled by the origins of the problem and have gone as far as replacing entire engines. I do not think MINIUSA is going to engage in the business of replacing engines worth $6K-$7K for the heck of it, or just to shut up a small group of “Vocal and obsessive customers” as someone downplaying the issue posted here earlier on. Dealers and the manufacturer are not going to engage in the game of changing parts and engines left and right just for an “Imaginary” problem. When the manufacturer orders the dealer to swap a customer’s engine is because there are well founded concerns behind that decision.
I hope that MINIUSA comes with an official response to this mounting controversy surrounding the Prince engine for the mutual benefit of all involved.
My ‘05 MCS is a cold-natured bitch! That car chokes and gags and sputters when it is started for the first time daily. It also hesitates and stalls when cold. This is a very disturbing experience that I endure every single day. I have addressed the problem with 2 different dealers and get the same answer, “can’t find anything”. The last time I had the car serviced (last week) the SA told me that was just the nature of these cars. Frightening.
I realize that you are addressing the R56 in this posting, but the problem is not just isolated to that model.
I think it’s how the way we drive “out” the car immediately after starting it. This morning was -5 degrees and I only warm it up for 2 minutes; drove out I tell you that the car drives like a truck with clanking noise for about a minute until I reach the stop sign. Then it was gone. This happen to me twice; once today and the other was 3 weeks ago. In between those dates; I warm up the car for about 7 minutes before I drove out and I did not experience it. It’s been really cold here in Chicago. So don’t drive out the car immediately when weather temp. is cold.
What happens if my Turbocharged Prince engine self-destructs after the warranty period has ended? What then will be anyone’s recourse if such event were to happen? What their response will be in a court of law if the customer was told repeatedly by the dealer that “They all do it” and that the noise is “The nature of the beast”?
What happens if an independent review panel finds inherited design defects with the engine that the manufacturer chose to downplay and ignore?
I don’t know about you guys, but I plan to hold onto my Clubman S for at least 10 years. Engine longetivity and reliability are very high on my expectations list.
I don’t dump cars every 3 or 4 years. Not even the truly rich do that.
After reading all these posts and forums on this issue, I haven’t noticed anyone mention that the most wear done to an engine is upon start-up. Engines are similar to light bulbs. Light bulbs burn out mostly because they are constantly turned off and on not through their use. I understand everyones concerns and have the same concerns because I own a R56S. Even after this expose the same questions remain and they are:
What is causing this issue?
Can it be Fixed?
Does the sound cause premature wear/damage? (This in my mind is the most important one)
Will Mini stand behind it’s product if it is an issue that causes premature wear?(This one is also real important)
Until these questions are answered it is all speculation and emotional reactions.
I have experienced this loud unatural noise twice in my year of ownership. (once every 400-500 starts?) To me the solutions are worse than the problem at this point. At long as it does not occur often I can live with it while it’s under warranty. Hopefully we’ll have confirmed info on the cause and potential damage before the warranty expires.
My infrequent noise has nothing to do with driving, it’s a ruckus right after start and while idling. Most of the time I CAN drive the car completely cold with no issues.
It’s a frustrating issue–its sporadic, and no one knows for sure whats causing it. I doubt it’s “piston slap”–I think the current engine is too well engineered for them to make a mistake like that, and I think they would have figured it out by now if it was (and I also believe you’d see it on the base Cooper).
My money is still on the “oil on demand” technology, time will tell.
I’m between a 135i and stage II JCW as my next vehicle; I’d hate to get out of a MINI, but I won’t even consider another one until this has been fixed–and I believe it will be.
Its definitely not normal - the car does not do it every day. If it did, then you might have a case to call it normal. But it does not, and I suspect that there are lots of people that hear it and shrug it off, are not so into their car that they read web sites like this. I suspect it is very widespread. I’ve seen it only with cold weather and I suspect if you live somewhere warm you might never hear it.
I have to agree with Frank (C4) - we have no way to know if this will shorten the life of the engine, and how that will play out after the warrantee is up. Any hint that the life has been shortened and BMW has bought themselves an extended warrantee for the first two model years. Ultimately they will have to promise that there is no affect on the engine and back it up with extended service.
And what of Frank? C4 buying into a problem that he cried wolf about during the R56 intro - karma is tough.
The R53 start cold issues are a totally different issue, mostly caused by buggy ECU controlling software. The two problems are very different in nature.
Just read the discussion at the Michigan Mini Club site linked above. To me this sounds very credible, but of course its one engineers diagnosis and Mini/BMW has to reach their own conclusion.
I experience this every morning. I live in Minnesota where it’s COLD. I always figured it was just do to a cold start and that nothing was wrong. I’ve since sent this article to the dealer.
I have had another BIGGER issue with the cold in the fact that many of us here in Minnesota and in Canada have had problems with our 07’s with a freezing throttle plate which causes the car to run very rough and undriveable. I’ve had the car in 4 times for de-icing and once for a fix, which is not guaranteed. The frozen throttle doesn’t allow air into the engine. It’s moisture that accumulates and isn’t burning off.
All I can say is that Gabe and MotoringFile as a whole, has really shown that a blog can sometimes make a difference.
I have to admit that when I joined MF back in 05 I was very skeptical and even remember going to NAM and ask if MF was not an independent source from BMW and MINI. Well you guys have definitely proved me wrong. This is fantastic and really encouraging as it really solidifies my belief that MF is a legit, professionally run information site whose passion from the editors is quite noticeable everyday day.
Well done, and although this puts the brakes momentarily on the purchase of a JCW R56, I am definitely confident that writeups like this will only make the revised 09 R56 a much better purchase just like my current R53 05 proved to be so far.
congrats guys,
A loyal reader,
fdb
Gabe, great write-up. I think it’s time for us all to admit that the 2006 Minis are the best ever. No problems with my supercharged MCS!! Also no horrible interior design or rattles. I love my car! Sorry to the R56 owners, but maybe you should consider buying the late model year previous generation Minis? They look better too!
Issue? No, a cold start ‘issue’ is what the R53 has…..won’t start. We had this on the ‘05 and the ‘06. Some noise during a cold start on the R56 is a nuisance, but won’t leave you stranded. It’s good to hear MINI acknowledges an issue, unlike the R53.
MINIME, I think that the real problem in your situation is the two inept dealers that haven’t been able to troubleshoot your issues.
I have a ‘05 R53 S with 37K+ miles and the car never once sputters, hesitates or stalls when the engine is turned on first thing in the morning. So, no they all don’t do it.
I am afraid your “wonderful” dealer don’t want to deal with you and your car.
I’m posting from Northern Canada where this rattle has turned into a REAL issue over the winter. Of the 8 months that I’ve owned my 2007 Cooper S, it has been in the shop for 5 of those months. Full engine replacement, several sensors replaced and it’s grown into an issue that causes it to stall when the the temp outside is sub zero.
It’s starting to look like they’re considering a second engine replacement. I wouldn’t want to own one of these things once the warranty expires.
There is a real issue here. The fact that it comes on more with miles driven, and isn’t universal to all cars are massive red flags to anyone who’s done any product dev or engineering at all. SOMETHING isn’t right. Things out of assembly lines are supposed to be identical, and these sure as heck aren’t. It’s hard to know the long term consiquences when the root cause isn’t known.
I’m not sure about the rest of you, but I’ve been hearing of this with ever increasing frequency for months. More and more owners are speaking up about it, and while accurate numbers aren’t out there, it’s obviously reached some sort of critical mass in that you can search YouTube and find multiple examples, every large enthusiast site has discussions on it, and it’s finally passed the threshold of enough concern to have an article here.
I’m hoping that there’s a good root cause analysis that results in a credible explanation and solution path. Independant of the potential damage that may be happening to the engine, there sure is a real large customer service issue to deal with. This isn’t what people expect from modern cars.
For those questioning the merit of the owners’ reactions to this engine noise, I suspect you haven’t experienced this yourself.
Actually, in my case I have heard the noise on my R56S. Does the car break-down or to malfunction in any way when I hear this noise? No. Can I still drive the car normally and without ill effect? Yes. Is this a noise that could be indicative of a longer term problem? Maybe or maybe not. Until I hear of someone’s R56S having a catastrophic failure directly related to this noise, I will continue to happily motor. Life is too short.
Boy, can I tell you, ‘cold start’ sure doesn’t mean ‘cold weather’! I’ve been experiencing this problem here in San Francisco for the last few months (avg temp around 50’s). Oddly enough, it sounds more to me like an old-fashioned knock problem like you used to find when your timing was bad. I wouldn’t be surprised that with the engine management system being an indecipherable coding nightmare, that there would be a kink in the programing that allows the engine idle timing to go all loopy when cold. It would be an easy enough scenario to comprehend. Besides, anyone who’s ever had an old engine with piston slap or loose chain tension can testify, they usually don’t go away when warm.
I would also like to point out from the R56S manual on page 36 is states: Do not let the engine warm up with the vehicle at a standstill. Move off immediately at a moderate engine speed.
So the actual act of sitting there listening to your engine may be causing the noise. Go drive!
Can I still drive the car normally and without ill effect? Yes.
really assumes a conclusion of which there is no absolute knowledge. How do you know that there’s no ill effect? Taken your engine apart for detailed inspection? It’s a hope at best. While it’s fine for you to not weigh these sypmtoms as worthy of your concern, it’s alwful presumptuous of you to tell everyone to think like you do!
And for what it’s worth, I can think of absolutely no reason as to why a car that’s cold shouldn’t warm up at rest. At idle with no load is the least stress an engine ever sees!
I say if you hear the sound promptly go drive the piss out of your car. You have to make the engine fail before your warranty is up. Also has anyone really questioned the practice of changing the oil only every 20,000 miles? Could that have something to do with it? Doesn’t oil over time get dirty, and possibly change viscosity? I’m no chemical engineer, but maybe that has something to do with it.
really assumes a conclusion of which there is no absolute knowledge. How do you know that there’s no ill effect? Taken your engine apart for detailed inspection? It’s a hope at best. While it’s fine for you to not weigh these sypmtoms as worthy of your concern, it’s alwful presumptuous of you to tell everyone to think like you do!
This is a two way street. People are assuming that something is catastrophically wrong. Yet there is no evidence to that effect. Explain to me how this is any different. Heck, even Mini states that “if” you think you have a problem contact your dealer as well as customer relations.
And for what it’s worth, I can think of absolutely no reason as to why a car that’s cold shouldn’t warm up at rest. At idle with no load is the least stress an engine ever sees!
As far as I can recall the R56S engine has a chain driven oil pump. The manual telling you to drive at a moderate pace and not let the car sit at idle when starting would seem to be directly related. Faster engine rotation equals faster oil distribution after startup. The noise we hear supposedly only occurs at idle and not under throttle. So while there may be a noise, maybe just maybe what the manual says is there for a reason.
I have driven off straight away whilst this noise occurs and I can tell you that it does not go away any quicker. I can be over a mile down the road before the noise stops.
I’m sure if you read through any car manual you will find a similar statement about driving off straight away - it is standard practice from manufacturers to write this in a handbook.
I would like to ‘just enjoy the car’ as you suggest, but this is difficult when you consider that excessive noises from mechanical components goes hand in hand with excessive wear, and is certainly an indication that there is a problem.
So the actual act of sitting there listening to your engine may be causing the noise. Go drive!
From this statement its obvious you have yet to experience this symptom. The noise continues while driving….not just at idle.
In fact, it worsens under heavier engine load.
From this statement its obvious you have yet to experience this symptom. The noise continues while driving….not just at idle.
In fact, it worsens under heavier engine load.
Actually I have heard the issue (see a few posts up). But I have not experienced the noise worsening under load. It simply disappears nor have I experienced power loss. Maybe we are talking about two different issues?
Regardless, the point I have been trying to get across is that maybe getting the pitchforks out and going rape and pillage Mini is a bit hasty. Yes, there is a noise, but there have been no failures directly attributed to the noise (yet). When and if there is a failure, then grab your pitch fork if Mini does not fix the issue then we rape and pillage. Until then ENJOY your Mini.
This is a two way street. People are assuming that something is catastrophically wrong.
Be carefull with vocabulary. SOME are hypothisizing catastrophy, but MOST are just expressing concern and worry. This is exactly the right response when an expensive product isn’t working to expectation. Either that of the buyer, or that set by the seller (I haven’t seen any warning “If your car sounds like chains in a bucket when started, don’t worry it’s normal.) Combine this with the facts that the symptoms change over time (red flag), that there was the postulation that this was a timing chain tensioner that now seems not to be it (red flag), that heads have been rebuilt (red flag) and full engines have been replaced (major red flag) all without any definitive root cause, I’d say that expressions of worry and concern are very, very warranted. Most who have come across this issue have owned cars in the past, and are well aware of what normal ranges of operation are.
Crap, I’m an avid car owner and modifier, some even consider me an authority on the new Minis, and how cars work in general, and I’d be really, really worried about this! So much so that I’ll probably delay the potential purchase of a Clubman until I know more about this issues resolution.
And the comment about the oil distribution by a chain in the drive of the oil pump doesn’t hold water. The chain will distribut oil to the gears just fine at idle. The way the hydrolic lifters or any pressurized lubrication system isn’t by the chain, it’s via the oil pump, and the pressurized oil gallies.
I placed the order for my 207 cc gt in May and eventually received it end of August. Within 2 weeks I queried a knocking noise in the engine and a jumping or hesitation on acceleration. I took the car back to the dealer who said after two weeks of having it that nothing was wrong. I took it for a second opinion and was told the same again, that the knocking was standard with the engine and they couldnt experience the hesitations i had felt. Within the next couple of weeks the warning lights came on and the display showed engine malfunction. The cylinder head had broken. So infact there had been a problem.
Oh boy. I went through those videos once again and that sounds awful. It can get tiring to pull into a gas station and be asked if your runs on diesel.
Yikes!! That’s no good. Went VW’s site and built a GTi and…no way Jose!…Mini better solve this fast because those VW’s look hideous and I really miss the chance to have so many options even though I am a black car purist.
I really think, looking a the big picture Mini made a huge mistake changing the car so much. It’s now a totally different vehicle, and to an 05 R53 owner it’s not even close to being a mini anymore. I loved my 02, I love my 05 even more, but when it comes time for replacement, I’m not buying another one. I’m very happy for the folks who love their 07-08’s, and hope you have the same WONDERFUL experiences I had and still have driving my Mini,the new one doesn’t compare, apples and oranges So to Mini USA,I say thanks for the fun…..on to the next…maybe a z-4 or a 1 series :-)
My August built did this once….in December when it was above freezing…i have since seen many sub freezing day up here in the great white north and not heard it since…I am sure it will be a matter of time till i hear it more offten.
Its funny to see how you guys get all nervous. Why are you calling for shoting down this discussion? Do you want to use a “dont ask dont tell policy?”.
Everyone relax!! = )
My service manager tells me that the problem seems to be related to a couple of pulleys on a belt on the side of the engine. These pulleys actually touch each other when rotating, causing metal to metal contact, causing the noise, which does go away as the car warms up. I am not sure what pulleys he is referring to, but he claims to have observed this and seen the metal to metal contact, which he says is a “strange design”. However, if this is the case, it should not cause any long term internal engine damage. I have heard it on my car, and it always sounded like someting external to me. I hope he is right.
anonymous, I also had an 02, and an 05, and I agree that the 07 is totally different. However, in my opinion it is vastly superior to the older one, which I really liked, but the 07 is a far better car. Not as edgy and loud and rough, if that’s what you want, but in my case, I will buy another when my lease is up, likely a Clubman. Different strokes, I guess. A Z-4 or a 1 series will be even more refined than the MINI, but good choices anyway, so whatever you decide, enjoy!
I have 20,000 miles on my ‘07 MINI, and it runs perfectly! After hearing/seeing the video samples that Gabe posted, I thought to myself and said that if my car sounded like that, I would be freaking out and bring it promptly to the MINI dealer. So I went out and checked and it does in fact make that rattle noise. Should I be concerned? Yes and no. The fact that I have 20,000 miles on, and considering my dealership told me I am excessively driving it (it’s not even a year old, it will be in May) maybe it’s not a huge issue at all. I’m not saying it’s something to just brush off your shoulder cause I did call my dealer to have a look at it, but until it gets worse, that’s when I should be concerned.
My point is that if Gabe didn’t post this, I wouldn’t have noticed.
For all of you chiming in with your two cents on an issue you don’t have, please, and with respect, leave it alone! This isn’t a dash rattle or a rubbing bonnet we’re talking about here, or the dreaded stumble of previous models. We are facing a fairly serious problem without a definable source that can be the cause of major issues along the line if left untreated. Idling it until warm, driving it till it goes away, or ignoring the problem altogether are not viable solutions! Please leave the idle speculations, VW shopping and cross-model bashing to the NAM forums.
I don’t know for certain how MINI handles warranty part returns. However when I worked in quality control for a parts supplier to a major farm equipment manufacturer I know haw that was handled. When a failed part was removed in the field it was returned to the equipment manufacturer who then sent it back to us. We would then inspect it for cause of failure and send back a report. If a failure mode was determined to be common we had to make a reasonable effort to fix the design.
So if the cause of this issue is common enough MINI should, through inspection of returned parts and whole engines be able to determine the root cause. I think it likely that even if this is not due to or causing excess wear and tear MINI will fix it. BMW/MINI have an image and a reputation as a high-line auto manufacturer. They realize that people will not accept this kind of noise no matter how much they are reassured that there is no damage occurring.
For example I own a 12/05 production R53 with the limited slip diff. I had 2 issues that I was not concerned about other than they were annoying. I had a slight rattle while idling which was fixed by putting in a revised flywheel. I also had a slight moaning noise from the diff when making tight turns (parking lot maneuvers) which was fixed by changing the tranny fluid. In my experience, most manufacturers would have shrugged off those issues as normal operation. MINI is concerned enough about their image that they were quite willing to fix those issues since they irritated me.
Has MINI given any evidence that they would be unwilling to fix this type of issue? At least once it brought to their attention and a solution is found?
Has MINI given any evidence that they would be unwilling to fix this type of issue? At least once it brought to their attention and a solution is found?
Yes. Read about CVT failures and SC failures. You can read lots and lots of posts where the failure rate of major systems is above what you would like to see and there are many that were just blown off. Read about the spontaneous engine bay fires from power steering and DSC module failures. While the number of people that this has effected isn’t all that high, it’s not hard to look for times when Mini/BMW hasn’t stepped up to the plate to fix issues. Ask about all the people who had strut tower mushrooming where the dealers and Mini called it a driver issue. Read about the cracked strut guide plates and spring perches that were not replaced under warranty.
Blind faith that there is an abundance of good will within Mini is really not supported by a serious search of the records…
What you’re talking about for root cause analysis is a goal that many companies try to push onto thier suppliers, and it’s a good way, a pretty much required way, for modern companies that outsource a significant amount of content, to create an efficient continuous improvement program. It’s also very, very expensive (I know because I’ve been on both ends of the issue in the semiconductor industry).
We’ll see where this all ends up. But from where I sit, this isn’t something that you just ignore till the reports of grenaded engines come in, nor is it something that you place blind faith that the benevolent supplier will just fix without any input from the owners. If it’s really, really serious, the repair costs will eat up all the profit from each car sale. That’s not good, and a very good incentive to set up barriers to having the issue dealt with. If you look over many Mini and BMW tech service bullitins, they say only address the issue if the customer complains. This means if they notice the problem, but the customer hasn’t mentioned it, that they won’t point it out to the owner or fix it. Pretty strong evidence that BMW/Mini doesn’t always address issues that it knows about.
IT’s good that this is getting more play than just the forums. It’s not really in Motoringfiles interest to talk crap about Minis, as it’s a bit of biting the hand that feeds. The fact that it’s a large enough issue to overcome this natural barrier means that it’s more serious than it first appears.
Please please please, everybody make sure they are referring to the cold start rattle, not the normal ticking sound of the injectors. If you do have the problem, do as the article suggested. Let MINI customer relations know and let your dealer know. The more cars they see, the more that will be done to address the issue. At the very least, you will get your problem documented for future problems.
Wow, never thought I’d see a piece like this on MF. And the scary videos, too! There might be fewer BMW press junkets in your future, but seems like you did the right thing. Bravo!
I took delivery of my R56 Cooper S in December 2007 and have heard this terrible noise on start up, once, at about 7,000ks. It gave me a terrible fright and sounds exactly as described in this article. As I’ve not heard it again, I’ve not thought anything more about it. If it happens again, I’ll be sure to send a link to this article to my dealer and ask for their advice. Thanks for the heads up..
Posts are correct in that, if you have this “rattle” you will be well aware of it. It is nothing you have to “bend an ear” to hear. Mine(an April,2007 MCS)started at 13,500 miles - about two weeks ago and in very cold weather. Noise has continued off and on since then. It sure sounds like metal-on- metal or, as some have noted, a very load diesel. It’s going to the dealer tomorrow. I would be a fool to ignore it.
I would also like to point out from the R56S manual on page 36 is states:
Do not let the engine warm up with the vehicle at a standstill. Move off immediately at a moderate engine speed.
Weird. I didn’t know that, and I could have sworn I read my manual cover to cover. Oops! I have been warming up my car for a minute or two every morning all winter!
Glad I haven’t developed the “cold start knock” yet. knock on wood
“Please please please, everybody make sure they are referring to the cold start rattle, not the normal ticking sound of the injectors.”
Thats why I tried to include the various videos documenting the rattle. I would hope that even the non-mechanicly inclinced owner could tell the difference between a normal DFI solonoid ticking away in time with the engine vs. that monstrosity of a clatter we’ve come to call “the cold start rattle”.
Did everyone happen to notice that they’re all different vehicles? Check YoutTube, Google or Yahoo video… there are many-many more out there.
My apologies that this wasn’t a definitive “this is the cause and solution” write-up… but the truth is, we just don’t know much right now other than some owners are effected, concerned and believe MINI should acknowledge the issue, get to the root of what’s causing the noise and find some solution to fix it.
Speaking from my experience alone… this has consumed much-much more of my free time than I ever hoped. From a Karma standpoint, I believe I now deserve a couple years of trouble-free motoring.
Just wanted to stop in here and say one thing to all the readers of this thread. MF gets over 10,000 visits everyday. Out of all the thousands of people that have read this story, only around 80 have commented. And the actual number of people who have claimed to have had the issue is much much less than that.
So while I believe it’s very important to report on this and any other problem that might pop-up over the years (click the recall/campaign section to see some of the previous ones), it’s equally important to keep everything in perspective.
Granted I don’t want to downplay anyone’s issue. If you have this problem, please contact your dealer and let us know how things progress. We’d love to do a follow-up story on this in a few months (or sooner if warranted.
There might be fewer BMW press junkets in your future, but seems like you did the right thing. Bravo!
Thanks but it’s nothing we haven’t done on MF before. Again check out the campaign/recall section for more of these type of stories we’ve written over the years. And for the record I don’t expect MINI or BMW to treat me, DB or anyone else associated with MF any differently. This (like all product feedback) is important to them.
If you’ve experienced this, you’ll be under absolutely no illusion that something sounds very wrong with your engine - it isn’t slap or DI noise.
The moment it first happened to me, I stopped the engine and had the hood up convinced that something had broken - it was that bad! I wouldn’t expect a diesel to sound this bad.
Fortunately, mine is 100% associated with a short move having been parked “nose down” on my drive, so I park a the flat now to avoid it. I’ve mentioned the noise to my dealer but don’t intend to book it in until BMW officially crack the issue.
Well there are many more mini owners that don’t read motoring file and any measure of the traffic here really says nothing about how common or widespread the issue may be. I think its much more likely that many owners just accept that their car runs roughly when they start it some mornings and never even mention it to their dealer.
The point is that Mini appears to be looking at it now, and once the cause is determined they have to decide whether or not they have something that needs to be fixed. It likely plays out one of three ways:
- they tell you it won’t harm the engine, there is nothing to be done.
- they execute a fix if a customer brings in the car for the rattle.
- they issue a recall for a fix on every car rattling or not.
Until it comes down you can figure they don’t know what’s causing it yet.
The mornings here in Hawaii are 75 degrees and I hear the clatter once or twice a week and it started around 1000 miles. It goes away about two blocks down the road and it doesn’t bother me. I would just like some assurance from Mini that this is normal and the engine won’t fail due to this problem after the warranty is gone.
Well there are many more mini owners that don’t read motoring file and any measure of the traffic here really says nothing about how common or widespread the issue may be. I think its much more likely that many owners just accept that their car runs roughly when they start it some mornings and never even mention it to their dealer.
The point is that Mini appears to be looking at it now, and once the cause is determined they have to decide whether or not they have something that needs to be fixed. It likely plays out one of three ways:
- they tell you it won’t harm the engine, there is nothing to be done.
- they execute a fix if a customer brings in the car for the rattle.
- they issue a recall for a fix on every car rattling or not.
Until it comes down you can figure they don’t know what’s causing it yet.
Greg:
There were plenty of unresolved issues with the 02-06 Minis - namely the bad DMFs that were replaced with equally faulty units and software issues that were never fully addressed. The DMF issue has been traced back to a manufacturer (LuK) who has produced these bum units for several different car makers. Has Mini stopped using them? No. In fact, the problem has appeared to have migrated to the second gen Minis. So much for them addressing a problem and doing the right thing.
BMW has a long history of shunting these issues to the side. As a past owner of several BMW products I have been on the receiving end of their idea of fair treatment. Do not count on them doing the right thing. Do not count on them owning up to the problem.
I would seriously urge everyone who has this issue to take their vehicle in and make some noise (no pun intended), spread the word on the other forums and make people aware that this is not a normal issue and that it needs to be dealt with promptly.
Each of us who have expierenced this issue are looking for some directon as to how to proceed. No one wants to here the words, “…it’s not covered under warranty and a new Motor is $8,000, installed less tax…”
[...] is then started. “Cold” refers to the temperature of the engine, not of the external temperature.Read the article (including video) on MotoringFileHave any local R56 owners experienced this? Published 21 February 2008 08:48 AM by Timmee [...]
this article needs a ‘digg’ button.
i wasn’t too happy reading this:
If you look over many Mini and BMW tech service bullitins, they say only address the issue if the customer complains. This means if they notice the problem, but the customer hasn’t mentioned it, that they won’t point it out to the owner or fix it. Pretty strong evidence that BMW/Mini doesn’t always address issues that it knows about.
i hope this issue gets resolved soon. especially for those who are planning on buying a r56 soon. sucks to wait til 2009 in the HOPES of the particular issue to be resolved.
This has happened to me twice in 5000 miles, once lasting several minutes, the other just a few seconds. I agree with Tony Uk, there is no mistaking this sound for something normal. To me it sounded like an older car that had a fan blade break off and was scrapping against the radiator. If a normal engine sound is like riding a bicycle, this is riding a bicycle with a card in the spokes!! I notice now that almost every time I start the car the sound is there ever so slightly for about a 1/2 - 1 second or so. I think most people would probably never notice this unless they have experienced the sound for more then 10 seconds.
I’ve been following the threads and have not taken it into the dealer because I don’t want my car to become a Guinea pig for trying to find the problem. Others have had many things replaced with no fix. I think most people probably feel the same way, we don’t want to have our cars sitting at the dealership while the service guys are scratching their heads.
Is there a corporate address or email that we can send our name, car vin# too? I think that we should start a list somehow on here, anyone willing to keep track of a running list of cars with the problem either here or on another site??
Frank, there is no mistaking the fuel injection solenoid for this rattle/rumble. Normally the engine sounds like a sewing machine. This noise is a clatter, infrequent, vs the fuel injection is a constant component of the engine’s sound.
Skip - I think the discussion here is more than sufficient to pressure them. On one of the forums there was a link to the NHTSA site. Obviously if enough people filed a complaint there they could be forced into a recall. But I’d rather see what they say is the problem first - you can always file later.
From what I’ve read it sounds like a brief oil starvation issue upon startup. It may be something with the design of the oil circulation in the engine - that could be a big problem without an easy fix, or it could be a matter of software control since it seems the ECU is controlling the circulation pumps activity. That could be a relatively easy fix.
SO its just too early to ballistic or start pressuring your dealer. The dealer is not going to be able to solve this - that much we know. Frankly I don’t want them tearing my car down on a wild goose chase. Mini has collected a few engines - lets see where it goes.
The owner’s max leverage here is going to come from the greatest number of people possible knowing about it, and owners who have it but don’t realize being made to recognize the noise. Mini can already hear people saying I won’t buy until there is an answer. Thats more effective pressure than we can bring as owners.
The problem I have is duplicating this noise for my dealer. If it only happens 3 or 4 times a month how can I prove that it does this? Thats less than a 10% chance that they will get to hear it first hand. I think this is the reason that people just don’t bother taking it in. We know the answer already…Sounds fine to us! +1 waiting for Mini to figure this out so my dealer will have a clue as to what to do with my car.
Keep your cell phone ready on movie mode, or your digital camera when you start the car. Make a film clip each time you do and keep them when you capture the sound. I’ve collected 3 since november, and I’ve missed a few occurrences, but thats because yes its hard to do this everytime you start the car.
I think it is fine and dandy to voice your opinion and let MINIUSA know that you will not be buying a car from them until this problem is effectively addressed.
But remember that for every 10 vocal customers (or would be customers) there are 90 other gals buying these cars and have no first hand knowledge about these issues.
There are thousands of MINI owners out there that simply do not frequent MINI enthusiast sites or frequent the internet that much. I have 2 co-workers that own MINIs that if you ask them about MF, NAM, MINI2, etc, etc, they’ll give you a blank stare.
But the internet is a powerful tool and while in the past automakers got away with “murder” it is increasingly becoming more difficult for them to wipe serious product related issues under the rug much anymore.
With this problem, the cat is out of the bag and the writting is clearly on the wall for MINIUSA to quickly act and reverse a situation with far reaching and damaging consequences to the product and the brand as a whole.
I am glad to see that someone else is having this problem. I have been talking with the service dept at my MINI dealer for a while about this, but they never get to hear it.
I have 24000 miles on my and it has been doing this since about 2000 miles.
Sorry to hear about all the troubles everyone is already having with a new car. One of the main reasons I sold my MC was the unanswered question that was plaguing the CVT tranny with random breakdowns … mostly out of warranty and very expensive to replace.
I really hope MINI USA steps up and has an answer to this new issue.
BTW, has this been isolated to the MCS motor, or is the MC affected as well?
I’m curious if there are any 2008 MCS/Clubman S owners here that have experienced this issue. I realize that most owners of the ‘08 models haven’t hard their cars that long, but it’ll be interesting to see if ‘08 models are affected or not.
Sorry to hear about all the troubles everyone is already having with a new car.
Unless you have your dealer tearing your car apart trying to diagnose there really are no troubles, no inconveniences. Up till now its just been a noise I could not prove. Now we have proved it, we have some uncertainty. I understand people not wanting to buy a car with an unknown defect, but not all the cars have exhibited it, and it may be unlikely you would have this.
I saw videos of this sound on Mini2 last Jan when I was waiting for my car. I went ahead and got it and I’m not sorry I did.
Its more than just the supercharger–the tritec is one tough old fashioned iron block engine–time has proven that. Its not nearly as refined as the Prince (the engine does look great on paper), but the jury is out on the long-term ability of the aluminum block Prince to hold up in real life.
I’m going to hold on to my R53 for at least 1 and probably two years, which gives me plenty of time to see how the R56 is going to pan out long term. It took awhile for BMW to work the kinks out of the R53, I expect they’ll do the same with the R56. If so, its probably a Stage II JCW R56 for me. If not, a 135i….Although as good as the 135i is looking in reviews, it may be impossible to pass on regardless of what BMW does with the MINI.
The vast majority of the cold start and stumble issues with the Supercharged Tritec, were due to faulty or buggy ECU controlling software. The Tritec uses a Siemens EMS2000 engine management computer.
Otherwise the Brazilian cast iron bugger is virtually bulletproof.
I just ordered a 2008 MCS. Before I ordered it I had some knowledge of the problem from posts on NAM. I actually had a discussion with the dealer before I placed the order, and they (predictibly) said that they had seen only one 07-08 MCS with engine related issues.
I briefly considered getting an MC instead, as I think they too are a blast to drive, with better mileage to boot. But, my baser instincts prevailed…
I believe that this will eventually sorted out. If it turns in to a long term reliability issue, I will probably sell the car before the warranty expires (or consider getting a warranty extension).
Some time back I posted to Gabe advising to hold back on purchasing the R56 MCS and wait for the Clubman to give enough time for MINI to iron out any issues with the new model. Now it appears that the issue affecting R56 could also be affecting the Clubman?
My 2002 MCS has only had one cold start knocking incident after it sat idle for a week during winter, which quickly disappeared after putting it into gear.
I had a misfire on cylinder 1 recently which put the engine into Emergency Reduced Engine Power mode, which cleared up after stopping then restarting the car. BMW Service found a dirty spark plug and it has been running fine since.
With my MCS almost 6 years old, I’m genuinely impressed with the Eaton M45 supercharger, the Tritec W11 engine and the Getrag 6-speed gearbox.
In terms of purchasing a new Clubman, I’ll wait to see if/when this thread’s issue is fixed before committing to a purchase decision and giving up my beloved (albeit ageing) 2002 MCS.
The fact that MINI has gone to the trouble of pulling and replacing several engines on affected cars is a good sign. However, I suspect that whatever the fix turns out to be, it will be on a ‘customer initiative only’, just like the rust issue that 95% of MINI owners are totally unaware of. By the way, did the new design correct that problem???
I should have been more clear. I was referring to the new design of the R56 and was wondering if it addressed the rust issue that affected the previous generation of MINI’s.
I’m glad i’m not the only one in this seemingly sinking boat. I bought a MCS in february of last year, by November (an estimated 23,000km) I heard the rattle on cold start. At the start it was only happening on the first start of the morning, eventually it was happening more than once a day. I took the car to my dealership and the timing chain tensioner was changed.
Unfortunately by the end of December the noise was back. My car went back to the dealership and after an assesment from a MINI technician from Dublin, the hydraulic lifters were changed. The ECU has also been replaced which has made no difference.
I’ve now been without my car for nearly 2 months. The next step MINI are suggesting is a complete change of all timing gear. Another MINI technician is calling to see the car next tuesday so it should be interesting to see his findings on the matter. I too have lost all confidence in my car and hearing that no changes have been made to the 2008 power plant only makes matters worse in leaving us with limited options.
My Acura story:
I traded in a 2000 Acura TL for a 07 Cooper S due to the well know transmission problem with 00-03 TL’s, (Google Acura - transmission for more info)
Acura’s approach to the major problem was the Band-Aid® method. Extend the warranty on the transmission and keep replacing then with rebuilt one’s until the problem was out of warranty. Acura never found a fix for the transmission!
In trading this ultra clean 42000 mile car I lost over $4000 in resale value due this problem. There was NO faith in driving this car for any distance…Well needless to say I would never buy another Acura/Honda product!!!!
If fact I steered my parents away from buying a Honda and going with a BMW.
The lesson for the manufactures is:
It’s us the customers who spend our hard earned money on your products.
It’s us the customers when we are happy with your products will recommend them to family, friends and even strangers.
It’s us the customers who deserve better then to have our new cars in the shop for more then 2 weeks for any problem.
It’s us the customers who should be able to drive our cars with some amount of faith in them!
Are You Listening BMW? I will get off my soap box now…
BTW: I love my MINI and would buy another pending the outcome of this problem and how it’s handled.
If fact I steered my parents away from buying a Honda and going with a BMW.
every car manufacturer has some lemons, and if you really look at the stats, you’ve just steered you folks from the fryingpan into the fire! While I don’t want to minimize the hassle that you went through with your car, Hondas pretty much set the bench-mark for long term reliability, and BMWs, well, let’s just say the handling keeps the customers coming back, cause the issues with their electronics and the attitude on lots of warranty issues sure isn’t the best.
But now the cat is out of the bag on this engine issue, and we’ll see what’s next! Will there be a fix, or will new owners be left swinging in the breeze? Who knows, we sure don’t. Not yet.
I’ve noticed this “problem” ever since about 6 months into ownership. It happens pretty much every morning, but goes away fairly quickly once I started driving off. Not only that, the engine feels sluggish when I first drive off.
Brendan wrote:
has anyone really questioned the practice of changing the oil only every 20,000 miles? Could that have something to do with it?
Well, I’ve changed the oil myself every 5000 miles — so, surely I doubt it has much to do with the noise. My car now (about 11 months after I took delivery), it’s got about 16000 miles on it.
I do hope that they get to the bottom of this — and I hope and pray the noise is not harming the engine.
Nimcosi wrote:
I would also like to point out from the R56S manual on page 36 is states:Do not let the engine warm up with the vehicle at a standstill. Move off immediately at a moderate engine speed.
Well, that’s an advice that doesn’t really benefit the engine. The theory of drive off as soon as possible is that if you first warm up the engine through idling, it doesn’t warm up all of the other parts of the car, e.g. the clutch, the transmission, etc. So driving off (but taking it easy) is really to allow the entire car to warm up quickly and at the same time, and less to do with reducing wear to the engine.
Dr Obnxs wrote:
Now Kevin, this is just funny!
If fact I steered my parents away from buying a Honda and going with a BMW.every car manufacturer has some lemons, and if you really look at the stats, you’ve just steered you folks from the fryingpan into the fire! While I don’t want to minimize the hassle that you went through with your car, Hondas pretty much set the bench-mark for long term reliability, and BMWs, well, let’s just say the handling keeps the customers coming back, cause the issues with their electronics and the attitude on lots of warranty issues sure isn’t the best.
I understand BMW’s may not be as reliable as Honda/Acura’s, but it’s how Honda/Acura handled this problem that made the decision not to buy another one. when you don’t fix a major problem, one that would cause a transmission to drop into first gear at highway speeds(nothing funny about that). and when you don’t do anything until enough people take the problem public, what does that say about a manufacture?
Again it’s not about what car is better but what can happen if a manufacture will not stand behind it’s cars.
Also I just don’t want to go through this again…
A few postings back Gabe mentioned that this site gets 10,000 hits a day and there had been (up to that point) around 80 comments on the story. It’s true that 80 (we’re up to how many now?) isn’t all that many, but, frankly, I believe I’m not the only one who’s grown weary of posting on this issue only to find over and over that not much progress is being made. I check out the forums just to see if anyone else has heard of anything happening toward a solution. I live 300 miles from the dealer, have 22,000 miles on the car, have 2000 miles to go before my first service, and am seriously considering buying the extended warranty just to cover me if this doesn’t get resolved soon. My car is my daily driver. The miles are mounting up. The noise is intermittent. It’s not cosmetic, it’s seriously mechanical, and for anyone to say it’s normal is pathetic. I change my own oil and filter every 5000 miles. I’m a working guy and this was my dream car. $30,000. Enough.
Customer satifaction aside, I think it will be in MINIs best interest to solve this problem for another (perhaps more self-serving) reason.
MINI needs a supply of used cars to resell at their dealerships. If the Cooper S (which represents a large chunk of mini models) develops a bad reputation, this will impact used sales. Additionaly, offering an extended 100,000 mi used warranty (as mini currenty does) on cars with “bad” engines dosen’t make great economic sense, either.
A solution would be in everyone’s best interest, I think.
I understand BMW’s may not be as reliable as Honda/Acura’s, but it’s how Honda/Acura handled this problem that made the decision not to buy another one. when you don’t fix a major problem, one that would cause a transmission to drop into first gear at highway speeds(nothing funny about that). and when you don’t do anything until enough people take the problem public, what does that say about a manufacture?
Then I think you need to do more homework. Every auto manufacturer has stories of ingoring the obvious inorder to minimize costs. Starts at some dealer, and some manufacturers have reps for being difficult to deal with in regards to what should obviously be warranty issues. BMW/Mini is no exception. While it’s pretty easy to find stories of how people were treated well by service departments with any brand, in the case of several issues with regards to BMWs and Minis in general, one can find that the manufacturer is taking very unreasonable positions. There are about a half-dozen of these with the Mini alone I could rattle off, but that’s going even farther off topic.
What remains to be seen here is if they figure out what’s up with the engine (is it sludge leading to starvation like Toyota went through, or an issue on manufacturing tolerences leading to less than ideal oil flow? I sure don’t know) and seeing what they do to rectify the situation. My Dad has an Avalon, and wondered why he got an free warranty mileage extension for his car. It’s because Toyota had a problem with engines not lasting due to an oiling problem, and in order to keep customers happy, they extended the warranty on the engine for a whole bunch of cars!
No one has answered this question….PUMA dealer reports are surely to have been generated from several months ago. How come MINIUSA has been kept in the dark about this? No communication with headquarters in the UK and Munich either? I really find that very hard to believe.
While I am willing to give MINI the benefit of the doubt and the time to come up with a convencing answer (and find a fix if possible), I am not holding my breath that their PR will publicy admit about the problem and much less so if it is found to be a design defect.
We are talking about millions of dollars worth in customer recalls and the bean counters/lawyers and PR people will do their darnest to do damage control. How they will go about it? That is the big question!
Germans are not known to openly admit about mistakes in their products.
The car industry faces huge liabilities from defective products and they have built up the necessary protection mechanisms to deal with potential and devastating product recalls.
Hope MINI proves to be a cut above the rest. Here is your golden opportunity guys to do the right thing for your customers.
A known issue with high mileage E30 M3 engines (I had one) was noise from the timing chain. The symptom manifested itself by a distinct rattling/knocking sound which dissipated after running a short while - 5 - 15 seconds. The problem was fixed by installing a more modern (E36) timing chain tensioner. Of course, BMW never did anything to acknowledge this issue because the warranties had long ago expired.
It would behoove any affected owners to raise a stink now and to document the issue so when you experience premature engine failure, you have documented the case and may get some consideration. Otherwise, look into your state’s lemon law. There may be grounds for a general class action suit by Peugeot and R56 Mini owners.
Bad engines are not unusual for BMW, though. The early E46 M3s had engines suddenly and catastrophically expiring. Early failures were attributed to owner abuse. I be
