R60 Not to be Called Crossman

Nathaniel Salzman Oct 9th, 2008 Link

Whatever the Estate’s final version, I’m sure it’ll be ugly and ruin the MINI brand. I’ll sell my R53 immediately and burn my owners manual in a ceremony of somber lament. A pox on MINI! A plague!

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Badburro Oct 9th, 2008 Link

Nathaniel -

MINI is just a brand name. Although it is associated with a small car, it doesn’t have to be just about small cars (the Smart car isn’t very “smart”). I don’t see how an Estate version will be “a pox on MINI.” Bringing more people into the brand will only drive up profits which in turn may be used for R&D of new MINI’s. I for one, welcome the expansion of the product line and hope to see a two seat coupe/roadster in the near future. Meanwhile my R52 will remain my MINI of choice for the foreseeable future.

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CarNut Oct 9th, 2008 Link

Borrowing one from the USAF, I suggest it be called the BUFF.

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James Oct 9th, 2008 Link

And there was much rejoicing!

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zm Oct 9th, 2008 Link

Quad4Max, Q4Extreme, 4^4

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John Oct 9th, 2008 Link

I assuming Nathaniel’s comments are sarcasm…, just making fun of the fact that every time a new model is announced a bunch of people scream that Mini has ruined everything.

Myself I will buy a Crossman, umm, whatever it’s called, 1st day. It can haul more and will work through mild snow and heavy rain. I just hope for a bench back seat in production so I can put 5 people in there in a pinch. And I’ll keep my midly souped up R53 *that’s the original S, right?) for nice sunny days with just me or 1 other person (and the occasional track time :)

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Mark Oct 9th, 2008 Link

Nathaniel Salzman Oct 9th, 2008 Whatever the Estate’s final version, I’m sure it’ll be ugly and ruin the MINI brand. I’ll sell my R53 immediately and burn my owners manual in a ceremony of somber lament. A pox on MINI! A plague! Badburro Oct 9th, 2008 Nathaniel - MINI is just a brand name. Although it is associated with a small car, it doesn’t have to be just about small cars (the Smart car isn’t very “smart”). I don’t see how an Estate version will be “a pox on MINI.” Bringing more people into the brand will only drive up profits which in turn may be used for R&D of new MINI’s. I for one, welcome the expansion of the product line and hope to see a two seat coupe/roadster in the near future. Meanwhile my R52 will remain my MINI of choice for the foreseeable future.

Nathan – Thanks for the impressive use of sarcasm. ;)

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greg Oct 9th, 2008 Link

now we’re up to 15 entries in 30 days on what isn’t even a real car yet….

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C4 Oct 9th, 2008 Link

I see this car being a hit in the great state of Florida.

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mike Oct 9th, 2008 Link

Geez greg! What’s up your tailpipe? Now back to a perfectly reasonable discussion about a future concept.

I wonder if they will do the same thing on this as they did with the Clubman. Just call them Cooper and Cooper S and let the body speak for itself.

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JonPD Oct 9th, 2008 Link

The idea of yet another larger Mini really doesn’t do anything for me personally. This would prove that once and for all the Mini brand is just surface dressing for being a BMW. BMW has a long tradition of building ever large and heavier cars and it seems this same mentality is alive and well at Mini.

Basically the line BMW passes on year after year is bigger is better. Holding to this thought process I guess the classic Mini is crap, the R53 is a little better, the R56 even better, the R55 nod in the right direction, the R60 boy we make good cars, the possible future bigger version we have hit one out of the park…..

This basically has lead many BMW owners to riot as year after year as their cars become more bloated.

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Mk1 Oct 9th, 2008 Link

… and don’t forget the other side the the BMW coin, with bigger car, bigger price. The MINI is already topping out of their orginal customer base. Know lots of people (formerly) in our MINI Club who looked at upgrading to models like the Clubman, but after calculating price – either kept their old MINI or opted to move on to a less expensive alternative that had the bit of additonal room they need for cargo/kids.

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Chad Oct 9th, 2008 Link

Yeah, if this costs say, $3K more than a Clubman, this would be really hard to swallow, as much as I love the concept.

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MSCLBMN Oct 9th, 2008 Link

Too funny, NS! If the comment of one Dr. Wolfgang Armbrecht is to be believed, a longer version of the R60 is not in the offing. In fact, this does mesh with MFs own discussion of future model variants. My point: hold off on your MINI brand postmortems and eulogies for just a little while.

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Hai Oct 9th, 2008 Link

I got my ‘04 Cooper almost fully loaded (minus Leather) for $24,400. The same configuration now would be in the 29-30k range. I got the GPS option for $1,700 then, now it’s $2000. The drastic increase in pricing is ridiculous.

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GregW Oct 9th, 2008 Link

JonPD and Mk1 are obviously on my wave-length. They are correct about the BMW “up-size me” mentality. Surely you don’t have to keep increasing the size of cars every time there is a new model, unless it is a different variant. Why keep changing a winning formula? What happened to BMW’s 7 year model life cycle? I have always understood that the Japanese manufacturers keep changing their models because the presses and dies wear out because they punch out millions. CROSSMAN – I always thought this name sounded “negative” and “angry”. But can’t see how it could be called a MINI MAXI. Perhaps its time for the brand name MINI to be dropped and called the BMW Mini, as most people call it this to distinguish between old classic and new cars anyhow. Then you could have a BMW Maxi.

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RB Oct 9th, 2008 Link

The BMW X1 will push the size of the X3 in to the range of the X5. The X5 with grow even larger, so they actually didn’t cancel the X7, it will be the next generation X5 in theory. I know that is a bit off topic, I like the idea of the R60, but for me price will be the deciding factor. I hope MINI comes through with a smaller car as mentioned in earlier articles.

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STIGG Oct 9th, 2008 Link

Nathaniel, After your the big write defending the R60 over at your website I’m not sure if this is real sarcasm or real disgust?!?! RB

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C4 Oct 9th, 2008 Link

The following quote was posted in autoextremist.com yesterday:

“”The four-seat Mini Crossover Concept at the Paris Auto Show, how shall we put it – sucked. Memo to High-Flying Mini Executives: Stop reading your press clippings and get a grip. Everything you come up with is not brilliant and/or great. Shut the lights off on the room where that Mini Crossover Concept came from, turn, and then walk slowly away. Please.”

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Ernie Oporto Oct 11th, 2008 Link

I question whether there is still a market for these vehicles. Sales are way down for large vehicles and I’m not sure it makes sense to still be involved with them. I think Mini is just blindly going through the motions with something that sounded good two years ago.

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Dr Obnxs Oct 11th, 2008 Link

Now for a little perspecive. While I have my own thoughts on this car, something about the size of a RAV4 is hardly large. A two wheel drive version only makes sense as they can offer the same body to a market that doesn’t want or can’t afford the 4×4 drivetrain.

Let’s think about it another way… If smaller is the only way to go, what’s next? A Miata fighter? Then what… A motorcycle?

For those that don’t want this, the coupe is still available. What Mini is thinking about is making a brand that’s large enough to work economically.

BMW has announced they’ll do a City car, though what brand it wears is unclear… That’s the lower limit of what Mini will be…. And they’ve announced the X1 and have the 1 series, that’s the upper bound of what Mini will be. So all you marketing experts, what should Mini do to increase thier customer base? I’d love to hear some answers that would be anything other than small niche cars that would never justify dev costs…..

Matt

Just like I have an old Mustang, and like some of the Ford product, I will never buy a Flex, but won’t hate Ford for making it.

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JonPD Oct 11th, 2008 Link

Matt,

I for one have never said this will destroy Mini, rather I do believe however that this trend is a major toss of the dice on how the Mini brand is going to be perceived in the future. With the announcement of the R60 Mini has largely gone against the first many years of what they have said their cars stand for.

“the SUV backlash has begun”

I am no marketing guru, I am only a owner who the message really hit home with. This message was near perfect evolution of the classic Mini and what it stood for. I however believe a roadster would sell well, and could see Mini making a smaller city car. Both of these would fit well and be good sellers. As for your comment about small niche cars not justifying the cost I would point out the very questionable Smart, and Fiat 500 that both have taken a good bite out of potential Mini sales. Guess at the end of the day what Ford stands for (other than junk bonds) is very different that what Mini stands for.

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Dr Obnxs Oct 12th, 2008 Link

The “SUV Backlash Has Begun” was pure marketing hype. There are lots of post from people who owned both, more than enough to show the message for what it was: Pure BS.

So OK, they do the proverbial roadster, and get the Isetta concept under the Mini name… That still leaves the space between the Coupe and the X1 to fill, and fill it they will.

In the US the Smart is a niche car, in Europe it isn’t. Neither is the 500.

What I find somewhat unfathomable is choosing to locate manufacturing outside of the largest market for the larger Minis. That’s some currency exposure for sure!

But I still stand with the thought that most who critisize aren’t thinking like a corporate owner or manager. Fact is they already sell the coupe at a relatively unchanged size (and slight weight loss) for those who like the size/proportions of the first gen MINI. The clubman has exceeded orignally projected sales volume. And the current factory is tapped out. MINI gets the Crossman from a group that’s good at 4×4s, and gets factory capacity from them. (That was the natural synergy that made this close to a no brainer). To get that capacity elsewhere, they either have to build a factory ($$$$$), or partner with someone else who has expertise at smaller cars ( and we’ve been reading about potential collaberation with FIAT) and no four wheel drive!

And this BS about what Mini stands for.. Are we forgetting the Moke, the panel vans and the pickup? And before, the Mini was more of a model line for car companies that, god forbid, made LARGER CARS!!!!!! It was the smaller end of a full spectrum of products. So now Mini is a quasi-stand-alone company. Does that mean that it can’t offer a full spectrum of vehicles?

I guess I just don’t get it.

Matt

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JonPD Oct 12th, 2008 Link

Would not be sad to see a Mini based pickup and a van either. BTW the R60’s are light years away from the Moke, a even more minimalistic car that is closer with a jeep than the R60. Think what your missing that I am saying Matt is cars like Mini is closer to other niche cars like Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari, Fiat in the regards that they have pretty clear things each stands for. BMW is much less like this but still somewhere between the niche cars and the mainstream manufactures such as GMC,Honda,Ford and such. Even BMW stands our for being driver cars, while the main manufactures produce a wide enough number of cars the have very mixed messages.

Mini has clearly based its new generations on the concept of being a, efficient luxury minimal car. As a proof to that hasn’t every last owner in a Mini been asked at least a dozen times “boy I bet you get good mileage in that”. With the R60 coming in to a size so similar to the Rave4 and larger than the Outback I feel that Mini has picked a new direction that could counter many years of hard work of establishing their brand and what it stands for. Even the media on the R60 concept has been all over the map, with many questions presented about the concept of a Mini SUV.

To top this off they are already talking about yet a larger version after the R60. If that part of the story has any truth would mix the message of what a Mini is. I guess your fine with a Mini 7 seater as long as is smaller than the direct competition, maybe they should make a super duty truck as long as its smaller.

Believe it or not their is a ton of room at the bottom of the size scale for unique offerings. I still think a city car that would sell like mad would be a classic body on a BMW updated platform.

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Dr Obnxs Oct 13th, 2008 Link

Here’s the quote from the article: “GoAuto has also learned that a front-wheel drive ‘Estate’ version of the production car will follow the 4×4 version sometime in 2011.” It doesn’t say ANYTHING about the size. Way I read it, it’s just a 2WD version like a station wagon instead of an AWD softroader.

Anyone read the BMW stuff in Automobile about a new FWD sub 1-sieries car for the BMW brand? Maybe based on the same platform as the next Mini? Also had a “son of” the C1 scooter thinggy with a windshield and roof that they sold in the late 80s…. It’s clear that BMW is looking to make lots that is smaller… I was surprised by the sub-1 series with FWD as it’s really going at the same market that Mini is going after. Either it’s a GM like mistake where they made cars that stole buyers from other divisions, or the marketing people have found that the Mini and BMW crowds don’t cross polinate much.

Also, Mini’s own marketing spin is (lately) about premium featurs in cost effective packages and efficient use of space… That could be for any sized vehicle…

I hear what you’re all saying, I’m just of the opinion you’re letting your wishes for what you think Mini ought to be cloud your judgment. Times change, goals change, pretty much everything changes. It’s up the the brand management and marketing departments to spin the common thread that link the products into a brand.

Matt

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Dr Obnxs Oct 13th, 2008 Link

And BTW, lambo made (in small numbers for sure) a killer 4 wheeldrive, uh, supercar? superjeep? so what they hay! http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z567/Lamborghini-LM-002.aspx

Matt

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JonPD Oct 13th, 2008 Link

I hear you Matt,

I just think that changing the business model that is one of the success stories of the automotive industry is quite a gamble. I tend to think in these days of big uncertainty that overhauling a successful business model is quite a choice by Mini.

There is no doubt that the R60 is going to be in direct competition with the likes of the Rav4 and could come away without being nearly unique hit the current cars are.Add onto this the increasing numbers of micro SUVs being announced and really for the first time Mini could find itself in the middle of heavy competition by other manufactures that Mini hasn’t had to deal with really yet.

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Craig Oct 16th, 2008 Link

-Surely you don’t have to keep increasing the size of cars every time there is a new model, unless it is a different variant.

AFAIK nearly every manufacturer is guilty of this. In MINI’s defense, the change in size was due to changing safety regulations. Specifically pedestrian safety. In addition to the change in powertrain. The Clubman and the new Crossover are additional models and not replacements so the new model year bloat does not apply.

-What happened to BMW’s 7 year model life cycle?

The first new MINI was introduced in 2001 and production ended in 2006. This is 6 years. I’m sure there were compelling reasons to make the change early. Tooling is expensive and BMW management seems to think that the 7 year cycle with mid-term refresh is the best compromise. I doubt that they would break with this strategy lightly.

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Craig Oct 16th, 2008 Link

For reference here are the dimensions of the Crossover concept as compared to the Clubman S: overall length 160.4″ vs. 155.8″ +4.6″ overall height 62.9″ vs. 56.4 +6.5″ width of body 72″ vs. 66.3″ +5.7″

The 2009 RAV4 is 3.4″ taller than the crossover concept, 1″ wider and 21.5″ longer. The Honda CRV is 3.2″ taller, 0.4″ narrower and 17.5″ The Subaru Forrester is 3″ taller, 1.9″ narrower and 19.1″ longer.

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D. Holder May 2nd, 2009 Link

I am so excited about the Crossman and would like to know more about the Estate version coming out in 2011. I am glad the car will be bigger because I am 6′5 and I’m sure that whatever extra room it will be much more comfortable for me to get in and out of. I will definitely be buying this car or the Estate. Thanks Mini for making these models! Dan

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