Ask MF: DSC on the Track?
To continue on the track theme from yesterday, this question was sent in by MF reader Fred:
>When testing a car, driving autocross, or racing, do you leave the DSC engaged, turn it halfway off, or turn it completely off? People say that they want to be in control, not leave it to the computer. Does a competent driver really have better control in competition without the DSC assist?
That’s a great question Fred and one that I actually spent some time coming to grips with a few days ago. I spent quite a few laps doing back to back comparisons with DSC on and off at Putnam Park and I found the results potentially surprising. With DSC on I found that I carried no less speed out of corners. In fact I found that, as long as I kept my lines tidy exiting corners, the DSC was rarely even activated. And when it did come on it was for slight throttle retardation (essentially feathering the throttle) with speed and precision that would be impossible for a human. This precision was quite a surprise as compared with my experience with the R53’s system or even my BMW 3 Series. With the R53 specifically I found the DSC to be generally a little too liberal in terms of interfering with aggressive driving. It would seem BMW has honed the system on the R56 to the point that it’s not really a track day liability. Or at least not with an aggressive but relatively smooth driving style or at a flowing fast track like Putnam Park. Of course the answer could be different on tighter more technical tracks or with different driving styles (and certainly different when autocrossing).
Note: both car’s mentioned above we’re equipped with limited slip differential.
Very interesting. I wonder if the drivers who decry the DSC are doing more stoplight or drag racing, rather than road course. (Or perhaps drive R53s?) I assume that a person would get more tire chirp with DSC off. Is that true? If so, it would add to the visceral enjoyment of takeoffs.
For affordability, I am pretty conservative on clutch and tires so I likely will never find out these things on my own. Thanks very much : )
Very interesting Gabe, sounds like the Mini engineers made a step in the right direction for sure.
So, it might be more of problem for tighter courses like autocross courses? I’ll have to test this one out myself once I get my MINI. I plan on doing rallycross courses so the potential to be slipping and sliding on corners is greater. Prob be a perfect opportunity to see how much interference the DSC would be.
My two cents worth – I had two E46 3-series sedans, and like Gabe, I found that DSC was a bit too conservative. However, in my Z4 3.0 roadster (which I firmly believe is the best handling car BMW makes today), I found it to be perfectly balanced. I could push the car hard, and slide the rear end around corners without any complaints from DSC. It only kicked in when I REALLY needed it. So I never turned it off (except on the few times I played with the Z4’s pseudo “launch” feature… hehehe)
In my Cooper S convertible, I usually turn it off unless the roads are wet. It is too conservative. And the MINI handles so well and predictably that I don’t find it as valuable as I would in a RWD car.
Everytime I visit a new track DSC on. If it’s raining, DSC on. Otherwise after I get to know the track well enough, I shut it off. This was in my 02 Cooper.
We’ll see how much I use it when I get my R56 and when I get on the track at the STLBMWCCA event in November.
. . . hmmmmm. Might be time to start designing that <strong>DSC “ON”</strong> Grill Badge Gabe! 😉
With the R53, there has always been a lot of confusion around DSC versus ASC+. I’ve found that the really intrusive routines in the R53 software that people complain about are around ASC+, not DSC. The annoying shut down on launch and low-speed corner exits hits even those cars without DSC. I always leave ASC off in my non-DSC car, unless I’m trying to launch on ice. Even then, once I’m rolling, it’s off again. Is ASC+ standard on the R56 as well?
I found i can not trail brake the car with the DSC on, the computer like to limit the yaw raw.
loose is fast.:P
Seems cars are being equipped with these safety “gizmos” for the benefit of less experienced drivers. It won’t be too long before the driver will become an auto pilot and have no control over the car whatsoever. With cruise control, self-parking, and PDC sensors already it is only a matter of when and where the first computer controlled car hits the tarmacs.
“In the year 2525…”
But what about DSC on or off during a straight out drag race??
I am one of those who seized caliper due to dsc on limerock taking twisties sideways.
On the occasion when I autocross I disable DSC. For one reason the ASC gets in the way leaving some turns if any wheel spin is detected. Not roasting the tires spinning just a little as would be expected but enough that ASC will kill the power.
Another thing is I have added a rear sway to loose some of the understeer. I would think running quick into a turn, letting off the accelerator while turning quickly to induce oversteer would be enough to alarm the DSC. Maybe some day I’ll go to the old airport around here and see if that is the case.
Unless you are driving a rear wheel drive car, in the rain, with bad tires, there is really no need to have the electronic aids turned on at the track.
Remember, along with having fun, we all go to the track to learn. Don’t rob yourself of a better education. Keep the DSC off.
That’s your public service announcement for the day 🙂
>Unless you are driving a rear wheel drive car, in the rain, with bad tires, there is really no need to have the electronic aids turned on at the track.
I think I made a pretty clear case that the DSC is not intervening in my car other than to occasionally feathering the throttle (and yes that is technically ASC) out of a high-speed turn. And that’s maybe 1 out of twenty laps.
To say that DSC should be off no matter where you are, what your driving and how it’s set-up is a bit of a simplistic argument. There are lots of tracks, driving styles and car set-ups that create different dynamic situations. Each of these situations are dealt with differently by the car’s computer and subsequently DSC or ASC.
>Remember, along with having fun, we all go to the track to learn. Don’t rob yourself of a better education. Keep the DSC off.
I totally agree that a beginner might want to keep it off in an effort to better understand what it actually does and doesn’t do. However I don’t think DSC can be entirely written off as a performance liability in every situation.
I know SO MANY people who deactivate the DSC when they get in their MINIs or BMWs… and I swear to you, I really don’t think they know why they are doing it. They just think it is better when it is off.
When we were at the launch of the R56, the professional drivers on hand said not to turn it off… that we’d be better off leaving it on. I agree.
I find that if I forget to turn off the DSC before making an autocross run on a 1.1 mile course, it will cost me three seconds on the run. This is on an ’03 MCS with totally stock suspension plus R-Compound tires. Because 2003 MCS’s did not have limited-slip differentials, you tend to light up the inside drive wheel in tight right hand turns. With DSC off, you can modulate the throttle to maximize what grip you do have. With DSC on, the computer chops the power so suddenly you feel like someone threw out an anchor.
Also DSC will prevent you from sliding the car to pivot it around a tight turn around a cone.
Just my two cents worth…
>I find that if I forget to turn off the DSC before making an autocross run on a 1.1 mile course, it will cost me three seconds on the run.
I would never recommend driving an autox with DSC on. Very different (and technical) situation than a fast and flowing track.
I wouldn’t recommend turning the DSC off on the track for either model, when you’re first starting out. Its saved my tail numerous times…
What a number of advanced drivers do at the track is start with the DSC on, see how and where its activating, then make a decision wether to turn it off (Most do, but now they have a better idea where its kicking in at and they’ll adjust their driving accordingly).
If the DSC is going off like crazy on the track, and it will when you’re first starting off, you’re best leaving it on. As you get smoother, it’ll go off much less, and that’s the time to consider switching it off.
Has anyone noticed that on the R56 when the DSC is off, it comes on again when it notices lots of spin?
For example i switched mine off and the light came back on when my wheels started to spin.
There’s a reason that WRC has eliminated electronically controlled diffs, F1 is banning traction control, and MotoGP is seriously considering it…these electronic “aids”, while perhaps decreasing lap times, take control away from the driver and make for less exciting racing. IMO it is much more fun to drive at the track w/ TC (in whatever alphabet soup form) off than on.
Just my opinion of course, but with SMG/F1/DSG/ manu-matics, DSC/ASC/ESP/traction control, etc., etc., the person behind the wheel is becoming less and less of the equation…don’t y’all actually want to drive your cars, especially when in a controlled track environment?!
I find that with my Z06, the best policy is to turn the active handling off in autocross and leave it on for the track. If I drive smoothly, it won’t activate on the track. In autocross, though, I’m just throwing the car around too violently not to activate it, and it kills any run I make. I suspect the same logic holds for the MINI R56.
<blockquote>Just my opinion of course, but with SMG/F1/DSG/ manu-matics, DSC/ASC/ESP/traction control, etc., etc., the person behind the wheel is becoming less and less of the equation…don’t y’all actually want to drive your cars, especially when in a controlled track environment?!</blockquote>
Amen…
<blockquote>There’s a reason that WRC has eliminated electronically controlled diffs, F1 is banning traction control, and MotoGP is seriously considering it…these electronic “aids”, while perhaps decreasing lap times, take control away from the driver and make for less exciting racing. IMO it is much more fun to drive at the track w/ TC (in whatever alphabet soup form) off than on.</blockquote>
The reason that they are removing electronic controls is because they are too effective for the top teams. The electronics give the top teams an unfair advantage. The officials are trying to make it easier for the other teams to keep up. If it were up to the drivers they would keep it as it is safer and easier for them.
I am on my second MCS. Both have/had DSC, the first one did not have the LSD and the new one does. The TC is definitely programed differently when you have the LSD/DSC combination. I find that I can now drive in a much more spirited fashion without the TC cutting in.
In both of my MCS I would keep the DSC on while on the street. You never know just when you might need the assistance of the DSC to help save your bacon. And forget the macho, testosterone laden, comments. You are not faster than the DSC when it come to accident avoidance.
The only times I will turn off the DSC is when I am trying to ascend a snow covered hill. But, in my ’06, I find that with the LSD and some nice snow tires I do not even have to do that. The LSD/snow tire combination keeps the TC from cutting power and I can just point it and go where I want.
However, when I Auto-X the DSC adds 2-3 seconds to my times if I forget to turn it off.
JOHO