Mercedes & BMW Negotiate Engine Deal

The on and off again BMW and Mercedes engine deal appears to be back in negotiations. However now looks like the next MINI’s engine might not be the only technology they end up sharing. Here’s an excerpt from this week’s Automotive News Europe on the possible joint venture:
>”Discussions on the board member level about engine cooperation are currently taking place,” a manager familiar with the situation told Automobilwoche, Automotive News Europe’s sister publication. The discussions are not limited to four-cylinder engines for the Mercedes compact model, but encompass willingness by both carmakers to cooperate on bigger powertrains. Mercedes and BMW want to match the powertrain-development advantage Audi gets by being part of the much-larger Volkswagen group. Economies of scale are more important than ever in the ongoing climate-change debate.
Unlike the previous Tritec engine, the current Prince series of engines were designed and engineered solely by BMW in Munich. And at the time of developement, PSAs’ needs aligned well with MINIs’ and thus a partnership was created, economies of scale were generated, and everyone was happy. However it looks like PSAs’ requirements for its next generation of engines might not match up as well with what BMW wants for MINI (which will be direct injection and similar in design to the current Prince family of engines).
Automotive News goes on to quote a BMW Group official on the sharing of other potential MINI related components:
>”We’ve made the realization that we are so well set up that we’ll only be able to generate cost advantages with engines and gear boxes,” the source said.
Dual clutch gearbox anyone? Of course that’s purely speculation at this point but that is the type of technology that appears to be on the table.
However despite all of this, it looks like another partnership with PSA isn’t out of the running yet. Again from the Automotive News Europe article:
>The decision is expected by year’s end, so the BMW Mini engine that BMW manufactures together with Peugeot is still being considered.
You can read the rest below:
[ BMW, Mercedes negotiate over engine cooperation ] Automotive News Europe
17 Comments
oh how nice that dsg will be. some day we’ll be telling tales to the grandkids about how we used to drive cars w/ clutch foot pedals & they’ll laugh.
just like our grents used to have cars w/o seatbelts–what were those crazy ppl thinking? 🙂
what’s galling is that i recall reading that one of the reasons for dumping the chrysler/tritec and going with psa/prince was that bmw didn’t want to give any money to it’s german rival.
so they went through all that new engine/bloated new body development only to turn around and consider teaming?
Not just that, but the supercharger was going to be limited on carbon emmissions, because it’s an Eaton blower. A turbo was in the cards, no matter what.
But I agree. BMW engine partnerships are like a girl who can’t decide who to date, and just sluts around!
These collaborations aren’t really new, BMW GM and Chrysler (I think) were working on hybrid stuff. What it comes down to is the dev costs are growing with both the power density and emission requirments, and sharing that around means that it’s possible to spend more faster, and catch up to the japanese who are farther ahead on efficient drivetrians. While GM is advertising the Volt as the new efficient GM, they’re also saying that it won’t be out till 2020! Blowing smoke once again.
What’s really sad is that BMW could have done wonders with a turbo varient of the Tritec, and done a continuous improvement program to have a really stout little motor, that would have better emissions and an iron block for those who like to boost power, and done it at less total cost than I’m sure they spent on the Prince.
But I wonder what will happen with the BMW-philes if eventually you get the same engine in a 3 seires as a Merceded C, E or whatever series! Talk about a marketing nightmare!
Matt
Wow Doc, you know some S&^t!
I can’t see why BMW needs to court other rivals. BMW has been winning engine awards for some years.
>What’s really sad is that BMW could have done wonders with a turbo varient of the Tritec, and done a continuous improvement program to have a really stout little motor, that would have better emissions and an iron block for those who like to boost power, and done it at less total cost than I’m sure they spent on the Prince.
I would be shocked if there are any iron blocks left on the market in a couple of years.
>But I wonder what will happen with the BMW-philes if eventually you get the same engine in a 3 seires as a Merceded C, E or whatever series! Talk about a marketing nightmare!
This is me guessing but I don’t believe BMW would let anyone touch one of it’s six or eight cylinder engines as a whole. They pride themselves in the design of those engines and (as you alluded) market the hell out of them. I’m guessing that they’re talking engine and drivetrain components.
and an iron block for those who like to boost power, and done it at less total cost than I’m sure they spent on the Prince.
Hey Doc,
Haven’t you been keeping up with r56 mods? For ~$3k you can mod prince engine so that it’s stronger than a tritec with $10k in mods. The iron block is only needed if you are going for insane power levels and now you are spending way over $10k. The prince may be aluminum but it’s able to handle some pretty impressive power. Not everybody wants 350+hp in a MINI.
Or perhaps I just missed your point completely.
All the manufacturers are in bed with each other to a certain extent – they try to centralize as much as possible, so it’s not hard to imagine them growing closer as time passes. BMW is a bit of an anamoly as an independent brand – nobody else is quite like them in their ability to stand alone, but things a changing fast.
<blockquote>“…and an iron block for those who like to boost power”</blockquote>
Seems that the Prince block <strong> with cast iron sleves </strong>is holding up just fine for those big-time power boosters. If you look at what Alta is up to lately, they’ve shown posted numbers north of 250bhp and 265lb/ft while running under 18psi of boost. Add water/meth injection and up the boost to 20psi and the Prince will be knocking on that 300bhp door very soon.
<a href="http://www.altaminiperformance.com/pages/show/60" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.altaminiperformance.com/pages/show/60</a>
Sleeving cost $. While iron is heavier, it’s cheaper too. But the quest for decreased weight is undeniable, and there will be more and more aluminum, and less and less iron out there, at least for western cars. I wonder what will go into the Tatra and Chinese sub $5k cars? Maybe Al motorcycle engines.
My point was that CIP programs are typically pretty cost effective. Starting a whole new business colaberation isn’t cheap. The tritec was a good little motor, and lends itself to a turbo just fine. All the fancy stuff that is on the Prince is pretty much on the head anyway (as it is with any overhead cam engine) and one could have done that with the Tritec engine just fine. While I’m not advocating iron as the best block of choice, I wonder how much of the overhead cost of the prince is and was the business start up costs (and write offs if the relationship goes south, or has it already?). It’s just an excel game really, but on-again off-again collaberations aren’t cheap. If the shareholders aren’t going to take it in the shorts than the customers will. There’s no one else to pay the bills.
Matt
Based on time spent with engineers who worked on both engines and what I’ve heard from other sources I’ve always had the notion that BMW was more anti-Tritec due to the fact that they didn’t design the engine and that it didn’t contain any BMW specific technologies. All the reasons they seem to be so proud of the Prince family of engines.
It’s interesting to think about what could have been though. Up until the partnership was announced in the late 90’s, most at Rover (and some within BMW) had assumed the K-series engine was destined for the new MINI. At the time the idea that a Chrysler designed and Brazilian built engine would be powering a British icon was unfathomable for people in and out of Mini/Rover or in the automotive world as a whole.
And of course the British press was ruthless when it came to reviews of the engine – especially in non supercharged form. But I always got the impression they warmed up to it – especially after the ’05 changes. It’s hard not to. I can’t think of many small engines with more personality. It may not be the best at anything… but it’s pretty damn endearing in about everything it does.
God that was rambling.
<blockquote>Sleeving cost $</blockquote>
My point was that the Prince comes with cast iron sleves from the facory.
<a href="https://www.motoringfile.com/2004/12/14/new_mini_38_psa_engine_range_in_detail/" rel="ugc">https://www.motoringfile.com/2004/12/14/new_mini_38_psa_engine_range_in_detail/</a>
It’s strong where it needs to be and the performance numbers from the commercial tuners are starting to prove that. I would also guess we’ll be seeing somthing resemballing those “insane power numbers” mentioned, too. Just maybe not from your everday, mail-order type tuner. Wasn’t Firebal Tim shooting for 400+bhp on that Street Tuner Challenge show?
Otherwise… back to the topic at hand… I give a BMW/Mercedes partnership about a 10% chance of panning out. Those companies have not played nice over the year. I just can’t see things going all that well. I thought the “BMW to purchase Volvo” speculations had more of a chance. But we’ll see.
I agree with Obnxs: the Japanese are way ahead in engine development. In >1 liter engines, even without any hybrid assist, they’re pushing above 23 Km/liter in fuel economy. In 660 cc engines it’s 25.5 Km/liter (27 Km/liter with an idle stop feature). The 1.4 liter MINI One manages just a shade over 17 Km/liter. These are Japanese driving cycle figures.
I think BMW would be better off partnering with one of the Japanese engine makers. MINI sourced their diesel engine from Toyota previously, so there’s precedent.
Having worked in large companies, it is surprising how many “big” decisions are not data driven. NIH (not-invented-here) syndrom has thrown billions of dollars on the scap heap.
But the reasons that the likes of BMW are looking for dance partners is size. If they want to develope the premium engines for tomorrows car, they have fewer units moved to spread the costs over. That translates to less profits, or a less competitive price point. That’s also one of the reasons BMW has a goal of doubling (I think, I never remember) the total cars made by 2020.
In the Semi industry, there were (and still are) huge outsourcing/partnership, and even consolidation efforts and events, driven by the very same economics. What’s really hard to master is outsourcing what’s not important (like who maked the CD changer) and keeping on top of what is (like Chassis engineering). More than one former market leader has screwed that pooch only to find they’d outsource the family jewels! Then they become slaves of their suppliers, no longer controlling what is their core business.
Think about how much of the price of a Ferrari is paying for the dev costs vs the actual production costs. With so few cars sold, the overhead must be massive! This basic math is why there is an exponential (with large posative exponent) curve that describes price vs performance. Going from a 4 cyl honda to a 6 cyl honda costs a lot less than going from Corvette to Ferrari performance.
Matt
Another amazing phenomenon is that while BMW are trying to increase sales and profits, they are cutting back on staff numbers in most countries.
The Tritec engine was also used in Chrysler PT Cruiser and Neon? Although underpowered in the PT, the engine has done darn well. The MINI Challenge race cars seemed to go ok, and of course Fireball Tim can avow for the potential output.
Another factor BMW will need to consider is that the U.S., their single most profitable market, appears likely to raise corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards to 35 miles per U.S. gallon. Roughly speaking that means their average vehicle will need to have the same fuel economy as today’s MINI Cooper. If that law doesn’t get passed now, it’ll almost certainly get passed in 2009.
Engine technology will be critical to hitting that mark, and they’ll need the MINI well into the 40s to bring their fleet average up high enough.
Also, the U.K. isn’t the greatest place to be assembling engines (or even whole MINIs) right now due to currency effects. The British pound is tremendously strong, and so is the euro. I think we should look to see whether BMW assembles engines elsewhere, such as the U.S. or Japan.
It would be interesting to find out why BMW has severed ties with PSA for any future engine development, just one year after the R56 was introduced.
I predict that the next generation MINI engine might not even use force induction or in a surprising turn of events, the Supercharger may well make a comeback (Ha! wishful thinking).
I want the MINI to have an European or American engine. I don’t want the MINI to sound and feel like a Japanese rice cooker. If I want the Asian engine feel, then I buy a Honda.