Here Evo puts the European hot hatchbacks through the ringer, comparing the Citroen DS3R to the MINI Cooper S and others. A terrific summary of each vehicle, showing just how close all these cars really are to each other on paper, but how far apart they are in dynamic driving appeal. The MINI fairs well, but we won’t spoil the ending. Definitely worth a watch.
<p>Chris. Is hands down my favorite automotive journalist these days. Good to see the MINI in the hot hatch battle. Do have to say Chris nailed the MINI. Broadly speaking so much of the brand is style over substance.</p>
<p>Also have to say this is maybe a so/so hot hatch shootout.</p>
<p>Missing several of the true hot hatches. EVO normally uses Renault Megane 250 Cup, Focus RS, SEAT Leon Cupra, and the Golf GTI as its tops hot hatches. All which are definitely hotter generally speaking than the jcw MINI.</p>
<p>That was an interesting segment. Here in NA we don’t see most of those other cars. I wonder in Europe if they get the Toyota Yaris and if the Type-R would qualify in the hot-hatch category?</p>
<p>@JonPD I’d say the cars you mention aren’t in this test mostly because they would be considered to be a class above in terms of packaging and size.</p>
<p>And, as you indicate, they’d most likely be a class above in performance as well.</p>
<p>I was going to say the same as Liam. Only in the US does Mini get thrown into that class with the Golf, Focus and other larger, because none of the other cars in its class are available here. Its a ridiculous comparison.</p>
<p>Never did I say that they were in the same class as MINI, just referencing that MINI is actually a step below the current hot hatch standards. I am not bashing them for it just pointing out the reality that our brand has yet to produce a truly hot hatch.</p>
<p>JonPD: Better not say to a red Mustang GT that couldn’t keep up with my Lil Guy the other day. Not saying that my JCW is a hot anything, but it definately keeps up with traffic, poor suspension, not enough power and all the rest of the negatives that this forum spews out. Oh well.</p>
<p>The current jcw is a really good car, I will never hesitate to say that its not a hot hatch. In the US it does pretty decent, Europe less so. I still think it has a lot of room for improvement, I would really like to see MINI separate jcw away from being a slightly hotter hatch over the standard S.</p>
<p>Looking through EVO’s channel on YouTube, there’s another hot-hatch shootout from a year or two ago that also includes the MINI JCW and more cars.</p>
<p>It’s worth a watch, too. They pretty much articulate the JCW’s charactoristics there, too. Some of thier percieved faults though, IMO make the car really fun: <strong><em>spoiler alert</em></strong> Chris comments on how the short wheelbase makes the car twitchey in the rear and prone to oversteer. See, now I thought that was a plus! Silly me! (for the record, I’m just poking fun as “twitchey” is bad, but being able to easily overstear a FWD car is still a hoot and so contrary to all of the usuale pre-concieved notions of FWD and what makes a “driver’s car”). The MINI doesn’t come out on top, but it gets what I would consider to be good marks. Curious if they would like the Clubman or Countryman better?</p>
<p>JonPD – I think the video we just watched shows that within its class the CooperS is in fact very competitive and better than the bulk the other offerings in Europe. Certainly not a “step below” these mysterious “standards” you mention.</p>
<p>The JCW would be then again better than the cars they just reviewed, albeit a tic more expensive. And we see Citroen was criticized in the review for just that issue. You want a hot hatch, it has to cost more for numbers its purchased in. Theirs cost more and delivered less.</p>
<p>I don’t see your statement at all that its not keeping up. Not keeping up with the larger size class? Your crits don’t add up.</p>
<p>These are all a large step ahead of jcw. If you read EVO you would see that though the last many hot hatch reviews MINI is missing. I was happy to see this test for sure. Not sure that Chris is using a S as he calls out it as having 208hp and 207 torque, Chris drives enough MINIs that I doubt he is making a simple mistake about the car stats.</p>
<p>i think the reason EVO doesn’t include the MINI is because in europe it’s in a different class from the golf and the focus. they’ve both grown over the years and their respective companies now have the polo and the fiesta that compete against the MINI.</p>
<p>Why is Chris Harris among the best of the current crop? Watch both Part 1 and Part 2 of his Ford Focus RS vs. Renaultsport Megane 250 Cup review below. It’s a clinic on how to properly review and compare automobiles, particularly in Part 2:</p>
<p>JonPD – the link you posted is exactly what I am talking about. That is a comparison of what used to be called “C” class sized cars. The Focus, the Golf are both a class size larger than the Mini which was “B” class. The Mini should not be in that comparison. It should be in the one posted above on MF. Only in the US does the auto press review the Mini against those cars, because there has been little in its own class. Maybe that will change going forward?</p>
<p>As to whether or not the above review was a JCW or an S, the HP figures you quote sound like the JCW – 208hp – 207 torque? 206 under overboost? The video shows a JCW body kit and you can see red brake calipers through the JCW challenge wheel set. Yet it was not identified as the JCW model, and they claimed it was the same engine as the Citroen. That does not make sense either – maybe the S engine, not the JCW engine.</p>
<p>In any case they did a similar comparison in the print edition, which clearly was the CooperS and the rank was the same. Renault, Mini, Citroen, followed by the 500 Arbarth (in place of the Polo GTI).</p>
<p>So at least in EVOs reviews the Mini stands up. I don’t think your expectation that it should be ruling in the “C” class reviews is realistic or fair.</p>
<p>Lav, if the Focus RS is brought to the US it would be in the same place. I know more than a few people that were cross shopping the GTI with the JCW already and I am quite sure the Focus ST or whatever gets brought here will be cross shopped too.</p>
<p>Chris. Is hands down my favorite automotive journalist these days. Good to see the MINI in the hot hatch battle. Do have to say Chris nailed the MINI. Broadly speaking so much of the brand is style over substance.</p>
<p>Also have to say this is maybe a so/so hot hatch shootout.</p>
<p>Missing several of the true hot hatches. EVO normally uses Renault Megane 250 Cup, Focus RS, SEAT Leon Cupra, and the Golf GTI as its tops hot hatches. All which are definitely hotter generally speaking than the jcw MINI.</p>
<p>Golf R? I think the price is about the same as a JCW.</p>
<p>Interesting review. I like how it’s not like the US reviews where HP numbers are king.</p>
<p>Matt</p>
<p>That was a great comparo (even if the MINI wasn’t on top).</p>
<p>Europe gets all the good SMALL cars.</p>
<p>“Subscribed” in YouTube. Thanks.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Chris. Is hands down my favorite automotive journalist these days.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Me too – by far.</p>
<p>That was an interesting segment. Here in NA we don’t see most of those other cars. I wonder in Europe if they get the Toyota Yaris and if the Type-R would qualify in the hot-hatch category?</p>
<p>Cool revue. Make me wanna try driving the renault – of course we don’t have them over here.</p>
<p>rixter – why even bring up the words yaris and hot hatch in the same category?</p>
<p>The yaris did make one top ten list – of the worst handling vehicles you can buy – the list included pickups, SUVs and minivans!</p>
<p>here is the link: <a href="http://jalopnik.com/#!5721280/the-ten-worst-handling-cars-of-2010" rel="nofollow ugc">http://jalopnik.com/#!5721280/the-ten-worst-handling-cars-of-2010</a></p>
<p>@JonPD I’d say the cars you mention aren’t in this test mostly because they would be considered to be a class above in terms of packaging and size.</p>
<p>And, as you indicate, they’d most likely be a class above in performance as well.</p>
<p>I was going to say the same as Liam. Only in the US does Mini get thrown into that class with the Golf, Focus and other larger, because none of the other cars in its class are available here. Its a ridiculous comparison.</p>
p>@robbie</p
<p>here’s the non-blog-spam link: <a href="http://wot.motortrend.com/10-worst-handling-cars-tested-2010-20318.html#ixzz19bbzdvoy" rel="nofollow ugc">http://wot.motortrend.com/10-worst-handling-cars-tested-2010-20318.html#ixzz19bbzdvoy</a></p>
<p>Never did I say that they were in the same class as MINI, just referencing that MINI is actually a step below the current hot hatch standards. I am not bashing them for it just pointing out the reality that our brand has yet to produce a truly hot hatch.</p>
<p>JonPD: Better not say to a red Mustang GT that couldn’t keep up with my Lil Guy the other day. Not saying that my JCW is a hot anything, but it definately keeps up with traffic, poor suspension, not enough power and all the rest of the negatives that this forum spews out. Oh well.</p>
<p>The current jcw is a really good car, I will never hesitate to say that its not a hot hatch. In the US it does pretty decent, Europe less so. I still think it has a lot of room for improvement, I would really like to see MINI separate jcw away from being a slightly hotter hatch over the standard S.</p>
<p>Looking through EVO’s channel on YouTube, there’s another hot-hatch shootout from a year or two ago that also includes the MINI JCW and more cars.</p>
<p>It’s worth a watch, too. They pretty much articulate the JCW’s charactoristics there, too. Some of thier percieved faults though, IMO make the car really fun: <strong><em>spoiler alert</em></strong> Chris comments on how the short wheelbase makes the car twitchey in the rear and prone to oversteer. See, now I thought that was a plus! Silly me! (for the record, I’m just poking fun as “twitchey” is bad, but being able to easily overstear a FWD car is still a hoot and so contrary to all of the usuale pre-concieved notions of FWD and what makes a “driver’s car”). The MINI doesn’t come out on top, but it gets what I would consider to be good marks. Curious if they would like the Clubman or Countryman better?</p>
<p>JonPD – I think the video we just watched shows that within its class the CooperS is in fact very competitive and better than the bulk the other offerings in Europe. Certainly not a “step below” these mysterious “standards” you mention.</p>
<p>The JCW would be then again better than the cars they just reviewed, albeit a tic more expensive. And we see Citroen was criticized in the review for just that issue. You want a hot hatch, it has to cost more for numbers its purchased in. Theirs cost more and delivered less.</p>
<p>I don’t see your statement at all that its not keeping up. Not keeping up with the larger size class? Your crits don’t add up.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/trackdayvideos/246493/renault_megane_250_cup_v_focus_rs_v_seat_leon_cupra_r_v_golf_gti.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/trackdayvideos/246493/renault_megane_250_cup_v_focus_rs_v_seat_leon_cupra_r_v_golf_gti.html</a></p>
<p>These are all a large step ahead of jcw. If you read EVO you would see that though the last many hot hatch reviews MINI is missing. I was happy to see this test for sure. Not sure that Chris is using a S as he calls out it as having 208hp and 207 torque, Chris drives enough MINIs that I doubt he is making a simple mistake about the car stats.</p>
<p>i think the reason EVO doesn’t include the MINI is because in europe it’s in a different class from the golf and the focus. they’ve both grown over the years and their respective companies now have the polo and the fiesta that compete against the MINI.</p>
<p>Boy was I dissapointed when I played this vid and it was about hot “hatches”. Thought I was gonna see something exciting.</p>
<p>Harris fan here too.</p>
<p>Why is Chris Harris among the best of the current crop? Watch both Part 1 and Part 2 of his Ford Focus RS vs. Renaultsport Megane 250 Cup review below. It’s a clinic on how to properly review and compare automobiles, particularly in Part 2:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCSMtTj5Ioo" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCSMtTj5Ioo</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3JCO-nutog" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3JCO-nutog</a></p>
<p>JonPD – the link you posted is exactly what I am talking about. That is a comparison of what used to be called “C” class sized cars. The Focus, the Golf are both a class size larger than the Mini which was “B” class. The Mini should not be in that comparison. It should be in the one posted above on MF. Only in the US does the auto press review the Mini against those cars, because there has been little in its own class. Maybe that will change going forward?</p>
<p>As to whether or not the above review was a JCW or an S, the HP figures you quote sound like the JCW – 208hp – 207 torque? 206 under overboost? The video shows a JCW body kit and you can see red brake calipers through the JCW challenge wheel set. Yet it was not identified as the JCW model, and they claimed it was the same engine as the Citroen. That does not make sense either – maybe the S engine, not the JCW engine.</p>
<p>In any case they did a similar comparison in the print edition, which clearly was the CooperS and the rank was the same. Renault, Mini, Citroen, followed by the 500 Arbarth (in place of the Polo GTI).</p>
<p><a href="http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/256822/citroen_ds3_v_renaultsport_clio_200_v_mini_cooper_s_v_abarth_500.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/256822/citroen_ds3_v_renaultsport_clio_200_v_mini_cooper_s_v_abarth_500.html</a></p>
<p>So at least in EVOs reviews the Mini stands up. I don’t think your expectation that it should be ruling in the “C” class reviews is realistic or fair.</p>
<p>Lav, if the Focus RS is brought to the US it would be in the same place. I know more than a few people that were cross shopping the GTI with the JCW already and I am quite sure the Focus ST or whatever gets brought here will be cross shopped too.</p>
<p>that’s the point. in the us they’re mistakenly put in the same class, but everywhere else the mini is recognized as a different class.</p>
<p>“Cross-shopping” does not justify the expectation that the Mini should outperform a more powerful car from a larger class.</p>
<p>Though it does matter when a buyer is out shopping for a small performance car.</p>