Driver’s Republic Tests the MINI JCW
The reviews are going to start pouring in this week and Driver’s Republic has one of the first. Here’s an excerpt:
>It doesn’t seem to matter whether the road is smooth or bumpy, flat or cambered, there’s always an intense tug-of-war between tyres and tarmac. The only thing you can do to minimise this behaviour is to leave the Sport button alone in an effort to keep the throttle response soft, but even then the steering wheel comes alive in your hands when the twin-scroll turbo spools up.
When it happens the temptation is to fight the car, pulling it back into line, but this only seems to make it worse, for the JCW decides to pull in the direction of your last steering input, which can make for some serious zigzag progress. Better then to stay calm, tense but not lock your forearms and try to get a grip on the front-end without over-correcting it.
>It’s a shame, for while there’s no doubt the JCW is blindingly rapid when stoked, its propensity to sniff around on bumps, cambers and white lines ultimately limits your point-to-point pace. It also makes you think twice about overtaking if the road is anything less than wide and smooth, which is a sure sign of too much torque steer in my book.
>Despite this unruly trait, once you’re through the torque steer phase and up and running in the higher gears – for the record that’s 3rd gear on smooth roads, 4th if the going’s bumpy – the JCW is terrific fun. Actually, it’s like that mate of yours who’s great fun to be around, but always seems to get you into trouble: you just can’t help but drive the thing faster than is sensible whenever the opportunity presents itself. Thanks to the overboost function that happens to be most of the time…
>I feel like a Luddite for criticising Electronic Differential Lock Control (EDLC), but when push literally comes to shove it doesn’t have the consistency, control or uninterrupted drive that a good mechanical limited-slip differential delivers. According to BMW engineers it is objectively better, being seconds quicker around the Nürburgring, but in the real world subjective feel counts for more, which leaves EDLC wanting.
A highly recommended read…
+ MINI JCW First Look / Driver’s Republic
Interesting review.
I’m surprised the reviewer didn’t care for the EDLC. Now I have to drive one.
My order will be in in Dec. My Lease on my Cooper S JCW ends in April. Cannot wait to drive our demo’s when they arrive!
Wonder what kind of suspension their test car had?
Edmunds Inside Line just published their review as well.
Everyone seems to be an expert on the EDLC vs. mechanical LSD but it comes down to the issue – either you believe the engineers when they say the JCW with EDLC was literally seconds faster on the ‘Ring than one equipped with the LSD, or you don’t. There’s no other valid reason not to, at the very least, offer it as an option.
Why would you pay $500 extra for something that makes the car slower?
Good point Todd, still have to say that saying its faster around the ring is likely talking mere seconds difference and I do have to say that I still prefer mechanical systems usually. Not saying that EDLC is not a good thing though, waiting to see how it does when I get hands on the car.
Also have to say that this is still a sore point with the car with me too.
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that if the M boffins really were to build a front-drive car it would be less compromised and better resolved than this.
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Hmmm….In my first drive in an R56 “S” I was alarmed by the torque steer. Bad. When I purchased my (dealer installed) JCW with LSD/JCW suspension/18″ JCW wheels the torque steer was completely gone.
I don’t know which of these options removed it or if it was a combination of all three.
Is LSD an option on this car?
Greg – you cannot get a LSD on this car
<strong>Why would you pay $500 extra for something that makes the car slower?</strong>
Because effective marketing has the power to convince the unsuspecting buying public otherwise.
I tend to side with the reviewer on his views of EDLC vs LSD. And it also comes as no surprise that this car has the torque steer issues that has plagued the R56 since the beginning of time.
It seems to me anyone considering this car should consider taking an extended test drive before signing in the dotted line.
Not a glowing review. Is the torque steer on the R56 that much worse than the R53? With about 200whp and a widened front track, I really have no complaints about my R53. I remember some marketing copy about “equal length half shafts” or something like that designed to minimize torque steer in the first gen cars. Did that design change?
I’ve actually driven the car and I would sign on the dotted line – not because of the EDLC but because it’s an all around great car. It does have its drawbacks but what car doesn’t? The GP has a long list of drawbacks but it’s still the best car I’ve ever owned.
If one spends their life waiting on the perfect choice they’re going to waste a lot of time they could have spent out having fun with things like the new JCW MINI or whatever ride you might think is better.
Just would have been happier with it Todd if they would have handled this better. BMW keep touting JCW as Mini’s M division. For me personally this car although very impressive is a long ways away from being a comparable product.
I do look forward to getting some seat time on this car to see how this stacks up against the GP. For me this is no brainer, the GP still represents what I consider still to be the only M style car to date from Mini. To me personally this car still feels like a “kit” car versus making a clear statement. Don’t get me wrong I still believe this is a desirable car, just was hoping for a tad more.
Not a glowing review. Is the torque steer on the R56 that much worse than the R53? With about 200whp and a widened front track, I really have no complaints about my R53. I remember some marketing copy about “equal length half shafts†or something like that designed to minimize torque steer in the first gen cars. Did that design change?
Nuvolari, i just think the torque steer issue in the R56 is a by product of having nearly 90% of engine torque available as low as 1,700RPM.
Todd, I agree. There is no perfect car. The R53 has its shortcomings and so does the R56 and every other variant. However, at 31K+ admission price I expect a little more perfection for the perceived improvements and prestige that comes with a factory JCW car.
Jon, I hear what you’re saying and I understand the desire that when you spend $5K more for a MINI (Base price $29,100 vs. $24,100 MCS) you want even more as with BMW’s //M cars. However, the jump from a 335 to an M3 is more than $16K (minimum) or nearly 40 percent more. The jump form an MCS to a JCW is only $5K or a 20 percent premium. I guess to earn the //M comparison a JCW should really be base priced at $39,100 and for the difference you could get the JCW aero kit and JCW suspension with some change left over. I think we can all agree that at $39K base price, a MINI like that would not sell very well.
I’m not going to get on either side of the EDLC vs LSD in this context as I have no experience w/it … I will say
1) I love my legacy LSD in my old 560SL… You can feel it working. But it does produce wheel spin of the inside tire that’s quite out of character for a classic old three pointed star car.
2) Have a look @ the specs of the MINI Challenge car… it does indeed have mechanical LSD.
I’m fine w/the JCW not being the perfect implementation of everything. Then, everyone will likely have one instead of me being in rarer company. 😉
One thing I am not sure of is, or surprised to be reading repeated so often … so -is- the EDLC active when either of the two traction control modes are active? Does it really only come on after you turn the other two off? (??? for extra measure)
Maybe its just me but I would buy a “M” style Mini if they made a real approach to this. I don’t have any issues with the cost alone, I just feel that this car has no clear statement like a M does. I would spend 40k on a top line sport version of the Mini. I have invested more than that total on my R53’s between the purchase price and aftermarket parts.
My problem is that right now you can spend less and still not have anything but a “kit”. The GP isn’t perfect but it does illustrate well what I think the Factory JCW should be about.
Has MINI come out and stated that their intention with the JCW is to be “the //M division of MINI� Or is that a label us enthusiast have tried to hang around the JCW’s neck because, like the M cars, the JCW is a factory tuned version?
Have seen BMW state more than once that this is the performance brand of Mini and relating it as such at the M Division.
“Relating it” or coming right out and saying JCW is the MINI equal to the M division? Whatever the case actually is, they both come with completely different sets of expectations.
BTW, regarding the JCW being “seconds faster” around the Nurburgring w/the e-diff…. anyone know how/where we can find out what that time is?!
Best review I’ve read so far and 3 pages long too…
<a href="http://www.carkeys.co.uk/launches/mini/15440.asp" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.carkeys.co.uk/launches/mini/15440.asp</a>
Think this statement from Gabe back in Feb of 2007 when BMW finally brought the JCW brand in house is more or less still in effect.
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As more than a few in the Motoringfile comment section over the years have mentioned, the JCW logo is about a weak a brand mark as you’ll find. And with the purchase of JCW by BMW earlier this year, this seems like a perfect opportunity to revisit the look at and feel of MINI’s performance brand.
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Guess my question would be, has BMW/Mini really improved the brand image since then. Personally for me I find the current dealer kit to have a very similar feeling behind it as the original kit had, and the new JCW Mini really hasn’t done really much to change this brand image. No doubts that the JCW are capable but are they really what the Mini community is looking for?
Read this driver’s interpretation of the JCW’s “torque steerâ€.
“Similar delicacy is required for the brake pedal, since it’s all to easy to find the windscreen heading towards your nose as you perform an accidental emergency stop. But the “treat it gently” scenario doesn’t work in all situations: in particular, you may find you have to bring your biceps into play on those occasions when the front end appears to be making its own decisions on which way to go next.
This alarming habit has been described in the media as “torque steer”, but it isn’t torque steer – or, if it is, it’s because the driver has applied the wrong amount of throttle at the wrong time. There is no reason why the JCW would do this on a reasonably smooth corner if it’s being conducted sensibly (and by that I don’t mean slowly, I mean quickly but accurately).
No, the problem arises when the camber of the road keeps changing. I discovered this when I accelerated flat out from walking pace to a speed I’m not prepared to discuss in public along a straight but dubiously surfaced road. The JCW gripped so well that it faithfully followed every single undulation in the tarmac, and I had to keep hauling the steering wheel back into position to reduce the zigzags to a minimum.â€
<a href="http://www.carkeys.co.uk/launches/mini/15441.asp" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.carkeys.co.uk/launches/mini/15441.asp</a>
I wonder how they made that “seconds faster” comparison–the only way you could reasonably do it would be the exact same car, same day and temperature, one lap with ediff, one with LSD–any other comparisons are worthless.
I recently saw a VERY good driver take his 135i on the track for the first time (he was limited to a degree as he was stuck with stock pads, as there weren’t any better pads available at the time), and the first thing he said he was going to do to the car was put a true LSD on it. I’m not sold on the ediff, and although I understand why BMW did it, I still wish the LSD was an option.
I have a June factory built ’08 JCW convertible. There isn’t even a hint of torque steer.
Greg your 08 is a R53 convertible with the factory installed JCW kit. What is being discussed is the R56 Dealer JCW and Factory JCW. The R56 is well known for its torque steer so far beyond the R53 in a lot of reviews that I have read so far. Still what this generally means is the driver has to be more involved with the handling of the car. A good driver can make ever a poor handling car behave surprisingly good, though its not a great situation for a car.
The reviewer’s final comments summed it up for me and confirmed the performance improvements don’t necessarly translate to an improved driving experience worthy of the price increase.
<i>
However, this shouldn’t distract us from the fact that the JCW is flawed in certain key dynamic areas, namely that unruly torque steer and its ability to control mid-corner bumps. All of which leads me to conclude – albeit reluctantly – that if the M boffins really were to build a front-drive car it would be less compromised and better resolved than this. </i>
Jon. I was making a point referring to an earlier post that someone made. This is my fourth Mini. If you had read this entire thread you would have seen I commented on the ’07 JCW I also purchased. Not quite sure what your point is.
Heh Greg, my only point was what is being discussed was the R56 JCW torque steer. That The R53 convertible you mentioned is apples to oranges thats all. The issue that is at the heart of the R56 torque is the very impressive torque the car has. The R53 didn’t have nearly this same issue.
Al these people complaining about torque steer, you know what you’re going to get… MINI is going to de-tune the cars so they don’t create gobs of torque down low! hahahaha
Torque steer and front wheel drives are old friend when it comes to high torque numbers. Maybe its just me but I am still not overly impressed with the performance stats on the JCW Mini so a de-tuned car is actually what I think the JCW and by default my GP are. Aftermarket tuners have been top dog for performance Minis for a long time and I believe Mini still has a long ways to go.
Not for a moment does this mean I don’t love my S and GP but think this car is capable of a whole lot more.
Man, I’d love to drive a GP. Not big on the looks but must be the ultimtate “feel” to drive. Unless you got behind a mega modded monster.
This new JCW must be stupid fast. But I prefer the “feel” of the R53(R52) even though my JCW probably isn’t as fast as even a stock R56.
I had a ’06 Cayman S and learned that “fast” isn’t as fun as “feel”.
Sorry, kinda off topic (torque steer).
Greg, if you ever do get a chance to drive a GP all I can say is be prepared, addictive little beasts! The new JCW Mini is sounding like a rocket and with a little small tweaks here and there think this car really is going to shine.
Got a chance to drive a R56 JCW with the JCW suspension the other day and was suitably impressed. However I still thought that in most every degree it looks like every other R56 S. The biggest difference is that the Dealer kit left me feeling like it was a capable car the GP leaves a huge smirk on my face every time. Looking forward to giving the JCW Mini a run around the autocross circuit in LA though I am sure Mini is going to put out a hit on me over my stand on the R60 and the JCW Mini. lol
for the record, i have picked up torque steer on my GP in certain situations.
not as bad as on the dealer-installed jcw r56 with standard suspension [i reviewed](<a href="http://minipassion.co.za/blogs/mininews/archive/2007/09/27/mini-cooper-s-with-john-cooper-works-tuning-kit.aspx" rel="nofollow ugc">http://minipassion.co.za/blogs/mininews/archive/2007/09/27/mini-cooper-s-with-john-cooper-works-tuning-kit.aspx</a>), but it was still there.
All front wheel drive cars with a decent amount of torque generally have some torque steer. The R56 JCW has a very impressive torque curve and hence more susceptible to it. I have had some level of torque steer on my Cooper, Cooper S, and GP.
Slay: you should have added in the next paragraph that follows “driver’s interpretation of the JCW’s “torque steerâ€.”
Other powerful hot hatches would have reacted by leaping off every bump on that stretch, but the MINI didn’t. In fact, it maintained traction all the way through that wild ride. The problem was not that it wasn’t good enough for the road; the problem was that it was too good, and actually needed to be a little less precise – more of a rally car than a racer – to be able to tackle it effectively.